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Author Topic: Need advice for commercial install  (Read 5720 times)

St. Thomas LeDoux

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Need advice for commercial install
« on: July 01, 2011, 12:17:48 pm »

Hi all,

I've been asked to help with a commercial installation for a gym a friend of mine is opening; however, my background is in live (non-permanent) sound, and I am frankly not acquainted with permanent install gear whatsoever.  If anyone could point me in the direction of what kind of equipment to use, and any major considerations to keep in mind, I would really appreciate it. 

Some details of the project:

Sound will be for a weight lifting room.  Does not have to be concert quality, but does need to be louder than the clanking of weights and the grunting of large gorillas.  Could most likely make do without subs and minimal system processing.

Budget: $1500-$2000.  This was the client's initial estimation.  To me, that seemed kind of low, but since I don't know enough about the kind of gear I'll be looking at, I didn't bother trying to sway him just yet.

Room Details: 3000 sq. ft., 100ft x 30ft, long and narrow.  Drywall sides and a metal frame ceiling sprayed with insulation.  The ceiling is not lowered (a double ceiling), so I don't really have anywhere to easily hide wires.  I did not catch what the floor was made of, but I'm assuming concrete covered in rubber mats. 

For speakers, I was thinking either 4 large cabinets in each corner with narrow dispersion projecting longways across the room, or 6 smaller cabinets with ~90 degree coverage, 4 for the corners and 2 midway down the 100ft wall projecting perpendicular to the wall (or 45 degrees out of each corner).  I realize that practically anything I get isn't going to exhibit real pattern control though, so I'm more so open to whatever works.  Again, I don't even know what brands to look into, but I need something that can be wall-mounted in corners that can pivot vertically.

As far as processing, I simply need the capability to playback a handful of different sources, from CD, to mp3 player, to radio.  I was thinking of just getting a 4 to 6 channel receiver to help keep down budget, but figured that would be kind of janky.  If I went the more professional rout, I would only need an unpowered receiver with 4+ inputs, a 4 to 6 channel limiter, and power amplification.  Again, dunno' what brands.

Does anyone think it would be more practical to just get an underpowered home receiver so that it would just be really, really hard to actually blow any drivers, or should I bite the bullet and start digging around for the professional stuff?

Thank you so much,

St. Thomas LeDoux

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Paul Walters

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 02:21:37 pm »

A 70v amp would be what you want, and some kind of line mixer for sources. A few JBL Control 28s or equivalent would work.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 02:26:29 pm »

Hi all,

I've been asked to help with a commercial installation for a gym a friend of mine is opening; however, my background is in live (non-permanent) sound, and I am frankly not acquainted with permanent install gear whatsoever.  If anyone could point me in the direction of what kind of equipment to use, and any major considerations to keep in mind, I would really appreciate it. 

Some details of the project:

Sound will be for a weight lifting room.  Does not have to be concert quality, but does need to be louder than the clanking of weights and the grunting of large gorillas.  Could most likely make do without subs and minimal system processing.

Budget: $1500-$2000.  This was the client's initial estimation.  To me, that seemed kind of low, but since I don't know enough about the kind of gear I'll be looking at, I didn't bother trying to sway him just yet.

Room Details: 3000 sq. ft., 100ft x 30ft, long and narrow.  Drywall sides and a metal frame ceiling sprayed with insulation.  The ceiling is not lowered (a double ceiling), so I don't really have anywhere to easily hide wires.  I did not catch what the floor was made of, but I'm assuming concrete covered in rubber mats. 

For speakers, I was thinking either 4 large cabinets in each corner with narrow dispersion projecting longways across the room, or 6 smaller cabinets with ~90 degree coverage, 4 for the corners and 2 midway down the 100ft wall projecting perpendicular to the wall (or 45 degrees out of each corner).  I realize that practically anything I get isn't going to exhibit real pattern control though, so I'm more so open to whatever works.  Again, I don't even know what brands to look into, but I need something that can be wall-mounted in corners that can pivot vertically.

As far as processing, I simply need the capability to playback a handful of different sources, from CD, to mp3 player, to radio.  I was thinking of just getting a 4 to 6 channel receiver to help keep down budget, but figured that would be kind of janky.  If I went the more professional rout, I would only need an unpowered receiver with 4+ inputs, a 4 to 6 channel limiter, and power amplification.  Again, dunno' what brands.

Does anyone think it would be more practical to just get an underpowered home receiver so that it would just be really, really hard to actually blow any drivers, or should I bite the bullet and start digging around for the professional stuff?

Thank you so much,

St. Thomas LeDoux
It's hard to know the sound quality and quantity required - anything from a pair of JBL Control 23s powered by an stereo receiver all the way to serious buck high quality high output gear could work.  If the budget is really only $2000 (including labor), think boombox.

If the budget was $5000, I'd probably put in a DBX Zone Pro 641m with some controls for multiple inputs and some medium quality speakers, such as JBL Control 29s.  Subwoofers would change the game, and seem to indicate you want the system to be much louder than moderate background music.  If that's the case, multiply the budget X5.  Also, cancel my gym membership - 110dbC of Slayer, Eminem, Usher, etc. wouldn't be my idea of a fun environment for a workout.

Make sure the speakers are hung according to manufacturer's instructions by a competent, licensed, insured installer.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 02:49:45 pm »

I will cast another vote for a 70V system. there are several good manufacturers and a simple mixer amp with adequate power won't bust your budget. I would put out a mono signal and use as many speakers as you can afford, with what's left over so you can keep the spot volume modest while filling the room.  The wire gauge for 70v is small, so you should be able to hide the wiring pretty easily.

JR
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duane massey

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 03:28:54 am »

Having done several health clubs, my experience is that they typically want it louder than you might think, especially weight rooms. 70v systems are a lot easier to install, but only the bigger (more $$) speakers will really get loud.
You might consider the following:
4-6 JBL JRX 115i
1 QSC RMX2450 or equivalent Crown amp
1 simple mixer (American Audio, Rolls, etc)
Spread the speakers out, firing straight down. Keep it simple, probably won't need any other gear except music player (I'd put in a plate w/ 1/8" stereo jack and have them provide iPod or MP3 player) and maybe a mic.

Make sure you are confident in your abilities to fly the speakers; I've seen some pretty ugly things in health clubs done by "home stereo" or "music store" guys. It's not rocket surgery, but you do need to follow standard rigging procedures.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

St. Thomas LeDoux

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 07:24:53 pm »

Hey guys,

Sorry for not getting back to anyone sooner, I was out of town last week.

I found a handful of 70v amp/mixer combos, as well as a few separate mixers and 70v amplifiers, and sent my buddy a few quotes.  I also sent him quotes for two different jbl loudspeakers, the control 25's and 23's.  I was wondering though, for a 70V system, is it imperative that I get the transducer models?  I figured it was, but wasn't sure.

From what I've gotten back, it seems like this guy is going for lowest possible budget, as he's really only showing interest in the least expensive components I showed him.  That is, he's looking most heavily at this:

Pyle PD450A PA Amplifier w/Built-In DVD/CD/USB/70V Output : $149

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=310-2066

and these:

JBL Control 23T 3-1/2" 2-Way Vented Speaker Pair Black : $228 each

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=246-722

Does anyone find any particular problems with this system?  I frankly think it won't get loud enough without distorting. 

Also, does anyone have any component sellers/sources they might recommend more than something like parts express?  I know one of our local sound companies is a JBL house, but dunno' what they use for small install, if they even do them.

Thanks again,

St. Thomas LeDoux
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 07:36:25 pm »

Hey guys,

Sorry for not getting back to anyone sooner, I was out of town last week.

I found a handful of 70v amp/mixer combos, as well as a few separate mixers and 70v amplifiers, and sent my buddy a few quotes.  I also sent him quotes for two different jbl loudspeakers, the control 25's and 23's.  I was wondering though, for a 70V system, is it imperative that I get the transducer models?  I figured it was, but wasn't sure.

From what I've gotten back, it seems like this guy is going for lowest possible budget, as he's really only showing interest in the least expensive components I showed him.  That is, he's looking most heavily at this:

Pyle PD450A PA Amplifier w/Built-In DVD/CD/USB/70V Output : $149

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=310-2066

and these:

JBL Control 23T 3-1/2" 2-Way Vented Speaker Pair Black : $228 each

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=246-722

Does anyone find any particular problems with this system?  I frankly think it won't get loud enough without distorting. 

Also, does anyone have any component sellers/sources they might recommend more than something like parts express?  I know one of our local sound companies is a JBL house, but dunno' what they use for small install, if they even do them.

Thanks again,

St. Thomas LeDoux

The Pyle is a pile of shit.  The Control 23, without subs, will not be loud enough to satisfy the requirement of being louder than clanking weights and grunting gorillas.

If they just want noize to fill in between the clanks and grunts, this will work until the Pyle dies (about 2 days out of warranty), presuming it worked satisfactorily to begin with... but it's not going to meet the design goal.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Mike Caldwell

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 08:18:43 pm »

What every you put in there it will need to be simple and bullet proof!!! What ever gets put in the "gorillas" will be putting it to the test. No frills but solid speakers in each corner, 15 x 1, power amp Crown XTi series 2, or one of the larger Peavey IPR DSP amps, set it and lock it out and a simple strip mixer.
Putting cheap and underpowered stuff will just get shredded after no time at all.

If this is more of a country club weight room where no one really sweats then maybe something lighter duty would work.

duane massey

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 10:39:01 pm »

The JBL's you are looking at will not even come close.
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Duane Massey
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Houston, Texas

Chris Carpenter

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 01:04:00 am »

Your friend isn't going to want to pony up the money required for a proper sound system. Let's just get that out of the way. If you go 70v, you can get a system installed, but it wont impress anyone. If you go with jrx, you'll hit your budget very very quickly and wont have enough coverage (think 2x speakers + a decent mixer/amp combo).

I'm being nice in telling you this, because I'm about to get crucified by the rest of the board. If I were in your situation, I would look to the Behringer actives. You can get 4 of the B212D for about 1K if you talk to a local dealer. Buy the wall mount kit, some cables, and have a few bucks left over to pay yourself. If you just have a 1/8" jack in the wall, you can set the level of each speaker low enough where blasting an ipod wont clip the drivers, and your good to go.
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