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[David Parker]

working for a good cover tune band last night, middle aged, 80's music. I was asked to turn the lead singer's vocals down in the monitors a bit. What a rare request. I work with too many that always want it louder, no matter how loud it is. It makes me crazy when the vocals are muddied because the mic is picking up as much monitor wash as actual vocals, and the singer is still asking for more. Thankfully most of my clients have gone to inears. The loudest thing at the mic wins, and when that is the monitor, it's going to be a rough night!

[Robert Weston]

Yep - I occasionally get the same type of request from the middle-aged (and up) bands.  It's the younger guys that still have the need to go to "11".  It seems to be increasingly more difficult to work with the younger groups.

Good to see you had a positive experience with monitors!

[Kirby Yarbrough]

I was asked to turn the lead singer's vocals down in the monitors a bit.

I suspect delivering clean monitor sound may have had something to do with the request as well.  Congratulations.

[Sam Zuckerman]

Yep - I occasionally get the same type of request from the middle-aged (and up) bands.  It's the younger guys that still have the need to go to "11".  It seems to be increasingly more difficult to work with the younger groups.

Good to see you had a positive experience with monitors!

I can't agree with this more. We have all college bands here at the club at school. I've used the system enough to know how loud something is on stage all the way from FOH. These guys always ask for more. One night I measured 112dBA on stage when I was only 103dBA at FOH. (reminder this is a very small space. 50 people is cramped)

After that I've learned where the loudness sweet-spot is and when they get there and ask for more I say no. Sure, there is probably 20 more dB I could give them, but I choose not too because there is a very fine line in the room between mud and clean. Now if I was working in a larger space with professionals this would be a different story.

[Paul Dershem]

I've worked with skilled, but inexperienced, musicians who asked to have their monitor turned up or down because they were hearing too much of someone else, or too little of themselves, and they didn't realize individual instruments or voices could be adjusted; they thought their only options were to turn their monitor up or down.

These are usually the same people who'll do everything in their power to hide their inexperience; it is sometimes difficult to assess their knowledge and offer guidance without embarrassing them!

How much effort do you typically expend to "school" inexperienced musicians and speakers before gigs?

[Sam Zuckerman]

How much effort do you typically expend to "school" inexperienced musicians and speakers before gigs?

Lots of times I don't ask if they've used monitors though many times I can tell they haven't.

My favorite is when they have used monitors but only on one mix. I get one guy trying to sort them out for the entire band. I go into my TB and say "Each monitor can be a separate mix" while moving my voice from one mon to another between phrases.

[David Parker]

I've worked with skilled, but inexperienced, musicians who asked to have their monitor turned up or down because they were hearing too much of someone else, or too little of themselves, and they didn't realize individual instruments or voices could be adjusted; they thought their only options were to turn their monitor up or down.

These are usually the same people who'll do everything in their power to hide their inexperience; it is sometimes difficult to assess their knowledge and offer guidance without embarrassing them!

How much effort do you typically expend to "school" inexperienced musicians and speakers before gigs?

this was a singer who asked for less of his vocals only

[Mike Reilly]

I go into my TB and say "Each monitor can be a separate mix" while moving my voice from one mon to another between phrases.

Hey, I like that idea. Nice way to demonstrate the concept of multiple monitor mixes for the times when you tell the band, "You've got 4 mixes," and they go, "Oh sure, right," and you can tell they really have no idea what you're talking about.

[Tim McCulloch]

working for a good cover tune band last night, middle aged, 80's music. I was asked to turn the lead singer's vocals down in the monitors a bit. What a rare request. I work with too many that always want it louder, no matter how loud it is. It makes me crazy when the vocals are muddied because the mic is picking up as much monitor wash as actual vocals, and the singer is still asking for more. Thankfully most of my clients have gone to inears. The loudest thing at the mic wins, and when that is the monitor, it's going to be a rough night!

My main monitor guy tells this story from his studio days (Muscle Shoals)... One of the session players always asked for *less* of himself in the headphone mix, saying "that way, if I hear myself I'm either off pitch or off rhythm."

Years ago, one of the Oak Ridge Boys had *none* of himself in his wedge.  He told me "I already know what I'm singing, I just need to hear the other guys."

This is the difference in the level of musicianship, talent and experience that is encountered.

It sounds like you did a good job, David.  Bask in the fleeting glory of performer recognition!

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[matt.johnson]

What a rare treat!  It's great to mix for bands that know what they're doing.

I always try to ask them to listen for what is too loud in the mix rather than what should go up.  Sometimes it works. 

[David Flowers]

Does anyone here use one of those "Feedback Extermanator" Devices??

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Does anyone here use one of those "Feedback Extermanator" Devices??

No.  Some of us do use Automatic Parametric  Equalizers, though.

[Sam Zuckerman]

Does anyone here use one of those "Feedback Extermanator" Devices??

We have some in installed racks in some rooms. We usually leave these events unattended and levels arent't really that loud so no need to stick an employee there for no reason. (only one mic)

I've used them at FOH back when I was in high school for the musicals. We had one vocalist who I could just not control so I inserted it on her channel (though I would have preferred a parametric.) It worked OK.

Never used them on monitors.

[Dave Barnett]

I thought the spread of in-ear monitors would ease the demand for more and more wedge volume, but lately I was getting more singers using in-ears who also want the wedges so loud that they'll blast through their ear molds as well as the stage mud.

[James Babcock]

I work with too many that always want it louder, no matter how loud it is.

As a singing drummer I have gotten pretty used to NOT being able to hear myself singing though any sort of wedge. I read something years ago that helped me immeasurably when I began to sing regularly. The basic premise of it was that learning to sing by paying attention to what you are feeling physically as you sing on key is invaluable when you are in a situation with less than adequate self monitoring. It is possible to sing on key by actually physically knowing that you are on key without the aural feedback being the only guide. Most often the only thing in my wedge is a bit of whatever guitar amp is furthest away from me, and enough of the lead vocalist to keep track of where we are in the song. Nothing else is REALLY necessary for the rooms we play, ever. The whole half stack and a 100w tube head in a club or small hall is ridiculous if you want to get a balanced FOH sound.

I think at the small club and hall level people may get a little carried away with having an incredibly loud high fidelity monitor blowing their hair back. For little other practical reason than they THINK that is how it is done. The reality is the average cover band could actually set up in such a way as to "mix the stage" so they can hear each other reasonably well BEFORE the wedges are even fired up. Then it is much easier to get a clear monitor mix without 4 vocal mics, 2 guitar mics, 2-6 drum mics and Lord knows what else all being fed into the mix for no real well thought out reason. It works, I have done it when the damn guitarists would listen and not point their amps and their ankles or asses!

[Patrick Tracy]

Does anyone here use one of those "Feedback Extermanator" Devices??

I have. My experience is with the Behringer DSP1100P and DSP1124P units. They work fairly well in automatic mode if there is enough level at the input. The detection threshold is referenced to the input level and can be set to -3dB, -6dB or -9dB. A low input level, like if you attenuate your monitor levels at the board rather than at the amp, will not work well. In any case they can hack the response of the system pretty badly if not supervised by a skilled human.

My current strategy is to use them as manual parametrics set after measuring the response of my wedges, but I leave a filter or two free for automatic feedback control should the need arise.

[Bill Burford]

I used to not do this but when a band tells me they have nothing after I've got the gain set to unity in there monitors, I run up to the stage like there's a major technical disaster or somethign.  I put on my "act".. tap the mic a few times... try to turn up the gain on the monitor amps which can't go up any further.. then in a really nice polite way, I say "check check"
Then I say into the mic, "Check check, hmm, now its working... what the heck?.. Can you hear that?".. (blank stares).. again "check check"..
"Could you hear that?"  Usually right about now, someone in the band spills the beans.
then I say, look at that amp right there.. then I yell "CHECK" and the red clip light comes on for a few miliseconds.
"Did you see those red lights?.."
...I do it again... "CHECK"
"I'm sorry but I can't turn it up any louder than that guys... Is that going to work?"
 ... "oh well, we can hear it now, what did you do?"...  "yeah, I guess that will have to do"
... "is my amp too loud? its only 40 watts"
I think to myself... I once turned up a Triple Rectifier that loud to demo it to a guy just before he bought it..

"alright, never mind, sorry, we can work with this, I was just trying to see if it could go louder.. but we can hear that.. this will do.. ok we're ready"

that's why the last time I performed I wore earplugs and told the engineer to turn my monitor off... and I was perfectly happy.  That doesn't always work.. sometimes I need a little of the other vocals.

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