ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: ADA8000 Clipping  (Read 7301 times)

David Parker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1198
ADA8000 Clipping
« on: June 10, 2011, 12:13:32 pm »

I use an ADA8000 as an expander to my LS9. Since it's 8 channels and I usually dedicate 8 channels to drums, it makes perfect sense (to me) that I put the drums all on the second layer, which puts them on the ADA8000. 99% of the time this has worked well for me for several years. I have one band I work whose drummer has a light touch. I set the toms where they are as loud as anything else, so that when he plays them, they stand out nicely. Problem is, on two songs, he wails on the floor tom. I never know when they are coming, and it clips like crazy. It never lasts long enough for me to isolate exactly what is clipping, and I wonder if it's the ADA8000 or the mixer. If the ADA8000 has a problem with headroom, all the limiting in the world wont fix the problem. I've talked to the drummer about it, but the leader of the band is adamant that he wail on the floor tom on the songs in question. I know there are a lot of ADA8000 users out there, and wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem. I also might use an inline pad on the floor tom channel if that is what is needed. Or I could switch just the floor tom for this band to one of the first layer channels, I know the LS9 preamps can handle the level.
Logged

cory waters

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 03:16:59 pm »

You can't get him to pound the tom repeatedly in sound check?

I'm not a fan of the input stage on our ADA8000 but I've not messed with any others so I can't say if ours is just a bad sample or what.  I mainly bought it to get signal out of our 01V.
CW
Logged

David Parker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1198
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 03:22:09 pm »

You can't get him to pound the tom repeatedly in sound check?

I'm not a fan of the input stage on our ADA8000 but I've not messed with any others so I can't say if ours is just a bad sample or what.  I mainly bought it to get signal out of our 01V.
CW

I really hate to pound toms too long in a club that already has a few patrons present. I WILL remember to get him to wail on the floor tom next show before I call it good.
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2011, 03:34:14 pm »

I really hate to pound toms too long in a club that already has a few patrons present. I WILL remember to get him to wail on the floor tom next show before I call it good.

Or you could intentionally set the gain low enough for safety, then make up whatever you need on that channel when you set your compressor/limiter.
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

duane massey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1445
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2011, 07:41:13 pm »

The mic pres on the AD8000 (like all Behringer) clips really easily. I've got 2 of them and I typically use them as line inputs whenever possible. I'd either use a cuple of external mic pres (major PITA) or bump up to the other channels.
Logged
Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 593
    • Az Concert Sound Solutions
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2011, 08:13:08 pm »

I use an ADA 8000 and I have drums on it oo.  I build a couple 20dB pads that I use to get a better gain range.  I find that with most drummers you can turn the trim down all the way on them and they will still peak out.  See another recent thread for a small picture I posted of the circuit to build the pads.  It's just three resistors.
Logged

Don Spaulding

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
    • Symphonic Sound
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2011, 03:16:06 pm »

a couple 20dB pads that I use to get a better gain range. 
Pads are always handy to have on a gig! Less expensive preamps have a limited dynamic range (in this case converters as well), in addition to not sounding great. The quick fix is a pad. But maybe upgrade to a better sounding unit like a mackie 800r (it has pads built in). What mics are you using? Some mics can't handle high SPL's either.
Logged

David Parker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1198
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2011, 05:11:07 pm »

a couple 20dB pads that I use to get a better gain range. 
Pads are always handy to have on a gig! Less expensive preamps have a limited dynamic range (in this case converters as well), in addition to not sounding great. The quick fix is a pad. But maybe upgrade to a better sounding unit like a mackie 800r (it has pads built in). What mics are you using? Some mics can't handle high SPL's either.

mics are sennheiser E604, not likely the problem! It sounds like a digital clip, not just distortion.
Logged

David Parker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1198
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2011, 02:27:04 pm »

I use an ADA 8000 and I have drums on it oo.  I build a couple 20dB pads that I use to get a better gain range.  I find that with most drummers you can turn the trim down all the way on them and they will still peak out.  See another recent thread for a small picture I posted of the circuit to build the pads.  It's just three resistors.

will the pads pass phantom power?
Logged

RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 593
    • Az Concert Sound Solutions
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2011, 03:45:00 pm »

will the pads pass phantom power?

yes
Logged

Frank DeWitt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 985
    • LBP DI Box
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2011, 04:02:49 pm »

Just a note on these ADA8000s  I bought 5 of them last May.  I am down to two that work.  I learned the hard way.  If you need it to work reliably for an entire gig I recommend something else.  (There are a number of 8 ch preamps with ADAT output.)
Logged
Not to Code

David Parker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1198
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2011, 08:36:59 pm »

I ordered an ART tubeopto 8. That should fix the problem. It has tube mic pres and pads on each channel, same hookup at the ADA 8000, AND THE MIC INPUTS ARE ON THE BACK!!!!!
Logged

Steve Hurt

  • Lab Lounge
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 661
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2011, 03:16:38 pm »

I ordered an ART tubeopto 8. That should fix the problem. It has tube mic pres and pads on each channel, same hookup at the ADA 8000, AND THE MIC INPUTS ARE ON THE BACK!!!!!

Not a fan of starved plate "tube warming"
Art should dump the tubes and build that box w/o them. 
Probably cost $100 bucks less, be 100% more reliable, and sound better.

The pads and rear mount XLR inputs are nice features.
Logged

Gordon Brinton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 484
  • ID Verified
    • Raw Depth Sound, Harrisburg, PA
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2011, 08:59:37 pm »

I use an ADA8000 as an expander to my LS9. Since it's 8 channels and I usually dedicate 8 channels to drums, it makes perfect sense (to me) that I put the drums all on the second layer, which puts them on the ADA8000. 99% of the time this has worked well for me for several years. I have one band I work whose drummer has a light touch. I set the toms where they are as loud as anything else, so that when he plays them, they stand out nicely. Problem is, on two songs, he wails on the floor tom. I never know when they are coming, and it clips like crazy. It never lasts long enough for me to isolate exactly what is clipping, and I wonder if it's the ADA8000 or the mixer. If the ADA8000 has a problem with headroom, all the limiting in the world wont fix the problem. I've talked to the drummer about it, but the leader of the band is adamant that he wail on the floor tom on the songs in question. I know there are a lot of ADA8000 users out there, and wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem. I also might use an inline pad on the floor tom channel if that is what is needed. Or I could switch just the floor tom for this band to one of the first layer channels, I know the LS9 preamps can handle the level.

I beg to differ. That's exactly why compression and limiting was invented. The problem is...the ADA8000 has no insert points to make use of any compressor/limiter.

Drums can easily clip any preamp if the player goes from playing soft to hammering like a maniac. (A problem with headroom? What's that mean?) I suspect you'll have the same problem with the ART.

Using a pad won't change anything. It will just make his soft playing sound too soft, forcing you to turn up the gain.

To get dynamics under control, you need compression. Moreover, you need a preamp that has inserts to accommodate it.
Logged
Member since 2005.

David Parker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1198
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2011, 10:16:20 pm »

I use an ADA8000 as an expander to my LS9. Since it's 8 channels and I usually dedicate 8 channels to drums, it makes perfect sense (to me) that I put the drums all on the second layer, which puts them on the ADA8000. 99% of the time this has worked well for me for several years. I have one band I work whose drummer has a light touch. I set the toms where they are as loud as anything else, so that when he plays them, they stand out nicely. Problem is, on two songs, he wails on the floor tom. I never know when they are coming, and it clips like crazy. It never lasts long enough for me to isolate exactly what is clipping, and I wonder if it's the ADA8000 or the mixer. If the ADA8000 has a problem with headroom, all the limiting in the world wont fix the problem. I've talked to the drummer about it, but the leader of the band is adamant that he wail on the floor tom on the songs in question. I know there are a lot of ADA8000 users out there, and wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem. I also might use an inline pad on the floor tom channel if that is what is needed. Or I could switch just the floor tom for this band to one of the first layer channels, I know the LS9 preamps can handle the level.


I beg to differ. That's exactly why compression and limiting was invented. The problem is...the ADA8000 has no insert points to make use of any compressor/limiter.

Drums can easily clip any preamp if the player goes from playing soft to hammering like a maniac. (A problem with headroom? What's that mean?) I suspect you'll have the same problem with the ART.

Using a pad won't change anything. It will just make his soft playing sound too soft, forcing you to turn up the gain.

To get dynamics under control, you need compression. Moreover, you need a preamp that has inserts to accommodate it.

The LS9 has limiters and gates on every input, including the ones that come from the adat expander. The limiters in the LS9 wont help if the peaks are distorting the preamps in the adat expander. Since the ART has pads, I can get the gain down to where the peaks wont distort the preamps, then I can use the limiters in the LS9 to level out the peaks.
Logged

Mac Kerr

  • Old enough to know better
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6315
  • Audio Plumber
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2011, 10:22:58 pm »

I beg to differ. That's exactly why compression and limiting was invented. The problem is...the ADA8000 has no insert points to make use of any compressor/limiter.

If a mic pre is clipping, how does a limiter or compressor help that? Even if the ADA8000 had an insert it would be after the mic pre.

Mac
Logged

Don Spaulding

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
    • Symphonic Sound
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2011, 01:10:41 am »

I beg to differ. That's exactly why compression and limiting was invented. The problem is...the ADA8000 has no insert points to make use of any compressor/limiter.

If a mic pre is clipping, how does a limiter or compressor help that? Even if the ADA8000 had an insert it would be after the mic pre.

Mac
Correct - after the mic pre but BEFORE the AtoD converter. Hence giving a little more headroom if it is clipping at the converter stage. If it's the pre, then only a pad will help.
Logged

Gordon Brinton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 484
  • ID Verified
    • Raw Depth Sound, Harrisburg, PA
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2011, 05:15:41 am »

The LS9 has limiters and gates on every input, including the ones that come from the adat expander. The limiters in the LS9 wont help if the peaks are distorting the preamps in the adat expander. Since the ART has pads, I can get the gain down to where the peaks wont distort the preamps, then I can use the limiters in the LS9 to level out the peaks.

Yes, you are all correct. But my point was...If you use a pad, you will still need to turn up the gain when he plays softly. Once you've turned up the gain to make up for the loss, you haven't accomplished anything. You'll be back at square one and still clipping when he plays the "problem" song.

Simply turning down the gain on the ADA8000 will do the same thing as a pad. If your gains are already down all the way then you didn't need preamps in the signal chain to begin with. (Because gains down all the way is the same as bypass.) You might-as-well just run that tom mic straight into a compressor and then through an A/D converter. Though, that's probably not practical.

Your problem is too much dynamic range for the preamp. Pads don't solve that problem. They only lower volume--which doesn't change dynamic range.

Can you hear the distortion when the preamp clips? Perhaps turning down the gain for that one song is a better resolve. Just submit to it.
Logged
Member since 2005.

Mac Kerr

  • Old enough to know better
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6315
  • Audio Plumber
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2011, 07:12:32 am »

Correct - after the mic pre but BEFORE the AtoD converter. Hence giving a little more headroom if it is clipping at the converter stage. If it's the pre, then only a pad will help.

I can't speak for the ADA8000, but most modern mic pre/AD converters are designed so the analog mic pre clips before the AD converter so you don't get digital clipping.

Yes, you are all correct. But my point was...If you use a pad, you will still need to turn up the gain when he plays softly. Once you've turned up the gain to make up for the loss, you haven't accomplished anything. You'll be back at square one and still clipping when he plays the "problem" song.

Simply turning down the gain on the ADA8000 will do the same thing as a pad. If your gains are already down all the way then you didn't need preamps in the signal chain to begin with. (Because gains down all the way is the same as bypass.) You might-as-well just run that tom mic straight into a compressor and then through an A/D converter. Though, that's probably not practical.

Your problem is too much dynamic range for the preamp. Pads don't solve that problem. They only lower volume--which doesn't change dynamic range.

Can you hear the distortion when the preamp clips? Perhaps turning down the gain for that one song is a better resolve. Just submit to it.

The problem is too much dynamic range for the music. That's why there are soundmen, and faders on mixing consoles, and we can hope, drummers who can play with the needed dynamics. Set the mic pre so it does not clip on the loud parts, and turn up the fader on the quiet parts.

There is plenty of dynamic range in 24 bit AD conversion.

Mac
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1297
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2011, 08:57:50 pm »

I can't speak for the ADA8000, but most modern mic pre/AD converters are designed so the analog mic pre clips before the AD converter so you don't get digital clipping.

The problem is too much dynamic range for the music. That's why there are soundmen, and faders on mixing consoles, and we can hope, drummers who can play with the needed dynamics. Set the mic pre so it does not clip on the loud parts, and turn up the fader on the quiet parts.

There is plenty of dynamic range in 24 bit AD conversion.

Mac

Absolutely!  It's all about gain-staging. 
24 bit audio means a real world dynamic range of about 124dB.  Far exceeds any live PA and any room in which it would be used.  No need to use every available bit.  Leave some headroom.

Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

David Parker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1198
Re: ADA8000 Clipping
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2011, 04:36:07 pm »

I use an ADA8000 as an expander to my LS9. Since it's 8 channels and I usually dedicate 8 channels to drums, it makes perfect sense (to me) that I put the drums all on the second layer, which puts them on the ADA8000. 99% of the time this has worked well for me for several years. I have one band I work whose drummer has a light touch. I set the toms where they are as loud as anything else, so that when he plays them, they stand out nicely. Problem is, on two songs, he wails on the floor tom. I never know when they are coming, and it clips like crazy. It never lasts long enough for me to isolate exactly what is clipping, and I wonder if it's the ADA8000 or the mixer. If the ADA8000 has a problem with headroom, all the limiting in the world wont fix the problem. I've talked to the drummer about it, but the leader of the band is adamant that he wail on the floor tom on the songs in question. I know there are a lot of ADA8000 users out there, and wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem. I also might use an inline pad on the floor tom channel if that is what is needed. Or I could switch just the floor tom for this band to one of the first layer channels, I know the LS9 preamps can handle the level.

UPDATE:

I have 3 gigs with 3 different bands on the ART Tubeopto 8 now, and it solved my problems. It's much more functional than the ADA 8000, and I haven't come anywhere near clipping it audibly. I can't say that it sounds any better, since the ADA 8000 sounded fine, except when it clipped. I got a B stock unit for $350.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.088 seconds with 21 queries.