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Author Topic: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?  (Read 13040 times)

Rob Gardner

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any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« on: June 01, 2011, 08:40:06 am »

I've been drooling over the manual for the new Midas Venice Firewire console for a while now, and have seen at least one positive review:

http://www.etnow.com/news/2011/4/first-tour-for-midas-digilogue-venicef-with-eliza-doolittle

I'm currently driving the 'old' Midas Venice 320 in my club and am already putting a bug in my boss's ear to upgrade at the end of the year (I know, no shame  8) ). Anyone here have any hands on with this desk?
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Rob Gardner
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Marsellus Fariss

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 08:20:31 pm »

I've been drooling over the manual for the new Midas Venice Firewire console for a while now, and have seen at least one positive review:

http://www.etnow.com/news/2011/4/first-tour-for-midas-digilogue-venicef-with-eliza-doolittle

I'm currently driving the 'old' Midas Venice 320 in my club and am already putting a bug in my boss's ear to upgrade at the end of the year (I know, no shame  8) ). Anyone here have any hands on with this desk?

I'm really interested in the quality, latency and routing options of the FireWire buss.
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Marsellus Fariss
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luis Markson

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 08:48:20 pm »

I'm really interested in the quality, latency and routing options of the FireWire buss.

I wondering if using a DAW for processing (as per review) is doable via a separate FW interface.. I've got Logic, a MBP and a RME FF800. Might be an option for L/R compression?
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Marsellus Fariss

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 12:20:17 am »

I wondering if using a DAW for processing (as per review) is doable via a separate FW interface.. I've got Logic, a MBP and a RME FF800. Might be an option for L/R compression?

Sure, as you can with most any console already, but why would you IF the firewire buss on the Venice is stable and low latency enough to be up to the task. One cable solution. Venice+macbook+host software= WIN! That's what I'm drooling over.

If your asking about using DAW's as plugin hosts, yes you can although I recommend using something lighter and with less overhead like Main Stage, Waves Multirack or Live Professor that's specifically designed to be a live plug host. 
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Marsellus Fariss
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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 12:49:33 am »

Sure, as you can with most any console already, but why would you IF the firewire buss on the Venice is stable and low latency enough to be up to the task. One cable solution. Venice+macbook+host software= WIN! That's what I'm drooling over.

If your asking about using DAW's as plugin hosts, yes you can although I recommend using something lighter and with less overhead like Main Stage, Waves Multirack or Live Professor that's specifically designed to be a live plug host.

I've not seen this done before..... How common is it?
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Rob Gardner

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 03:00:41 am »

I've not seen this done before..... How common is it?

I've seen quite a few friends do this with a USB audio interface (Marsellus included), the key is to have a device with low enough latency so that the I/O delay is unnoticeable. It seems to me that since Firewire is at least 800 mbps that you would easily overcome latency issues. I'd probably just build a dedicated workstation for that purpose, I'm throwing together a simple rig right now for my SMAART setup.

Beside the Firewire stuff, I love how they finally got the layout of the desk right - phantom power on the top surface (not in the back, ugh!), split up the subgroup buttons (not grouped as 1-2 and 3-4 so you have to pan out bus assignments - whoever thought that was a good idea?), got the sub buttons out of the fader area, put sub, FX and master faders at the right end of the desk, etc. - pretty much everything that I have complaints with on my current desk. Also, the EQ is Verona style with variable Q on each sweep! The price is pretty much unbeatable...
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 03:04:34 am by Rob Gardner »
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Rob Gardner
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Bob Leonard

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 12:02:55 pm »

I've not seen this done before..... How common is it?

I've seen quite a few friends do this with a USB audio interface (Marsellus included), the key is to have a device with low enough latency so that the I/O delay is unnoticeable. It seems to me that since Firewire is at least 800 mbps that you would easily overcome latency issues. I'd probably just build a dedicated workstation for that purpose, I'm throwing together a simple rig right now for my SMAART setup.

Beside the Firewire stuff, I love how they finally got the layout of the desk right - phantom power on the top surface (not in the back, ugh!), split up the subgroup buttons (not grouped as 1-2 and 3-4 so you have to pan out bus assignments - whoever thought that was a good idea?), got the sub buttons out of the fader area, put sub, FX and master faders at the right end of the desk, etc. - pretty much everything that I have complaints with on my current desk. Also, the EQ is Verona style with variable Q on each sweep! The price is pretty much unbeatable...

Rob,
I recently upgraded my rackmount board and after almost a year of comparing the LS9, Venice, and APB Pro House, the APB won hands down. I had decided to stay in an analog world, and although the LS9 has nice features and a nice layout it just wasn't for me. The Midas board fit the bill and had the firewire interface which my old board also had, and which I used to feed a Cubase 5 system.
 
I finally purchased the APB based on feature set and sound quality. It's an amazing board, leaves nothing to be desired, and the sound quality is well above that of both the LS9 and the Midas. If not having the firewire is not a big deal, and with all of the interfaces available I wouldn't think it should be, then I would suggest you look at the APB lineup. Here is a link to the board I bought;
 
http://www.apb-dynasonics.com/products/Products_ProRackHouse.html
 
 
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Rob Gardner

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 02:22:29 pm »

Hey, Bob,

Thanks for the great feedback! I really have been wanting to get my hands on some APB stuff, especially after seeing the Punch Brothers' onstage IEM rig last year (they had the ProRack-Monitor - sexy!). I think the ProDesk 424 would be the best  'Venice equivalent' for my situation due to space constraints at my FOH position and I've heard nothing but great things about the preamps, layout, etc. Still, the firewire on the Venice is pretty tantalizing as well... It'll be a tough decision but I'm gonna have to sit on it until at least Spring 2012. I guess I have pretty high class problems if I'm griping about upgrading from a Midas...  ;D

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Rob Gardner
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Marsellus Fariss

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 04:43:05 pm »

I've not seen this done before..... How common is it?

It's not very common but likely to become more so I suspect. Problem now is you have to trust your hardware, PC and software to not crash in the middle of the show. And there's the problem of latency. Right now software companies that publish plugin host software don't have (or don't engineer) any way  of monitoring the round trip latency of your I/O box AND so far I've not seen any software with good latency monitoring of even the actual plug-in on it's own. Your kind of left to "roll your own," do the homework and determine your rig's latency and capabilities. I think it's quite unreasonable to expect somebody to buy a laptop, an audio I/O box, and sell them very expensive software only to wind up with a totally unusable rig due to latency and reliability. I think these companies need to qualify hardware and provide helpful information on configuration and provide some latency monitoring capability.

A well designed built in firewire buss would take a lot of that headache out of the equation. As does MADI cards. There's still latency but it's much easier to manage.   

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Marsellus Fariss
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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2011, 04:57:03 pm »

It's not very common but likely to become more so I suspect. Problem now is you have to trust your hardware, PC and software to not crash in the middle of the show. And there's the problem of latency. Right now software companies that publish plugin host software don't have (or don't engineer) any way  of monitoring the round trip latency of your I/O box AND so far I've not seen any software with good latency monitoring of even the actual plug-in on it's own. Your kind of left to "roll your own," do the homework and determine your rig's latency and capabilities. I think it's quite unreasonable to expect somebody to buy a laptop, an audio I/O box, and sell them very expensive software only to wind up with a totally unusable rig due to latency and reliability. I think these companies need to qualify hardware and provide helpful information on configuration and provide some latency monitoring capability.

A well designed built in firewire buss would take a lot of that headache out of the equation. As does MADI cards. There's still latency but it's much easier to manage.   



You hit the nail on the head. A good system is the first requirement, but it will only be as good as the application sitting on top of it. I'll be keeping my old 1640 for use as a recording interface. Combined with Cubase 5 the latency is down to 2-3ms. Better than needed for almost anything I may do and certainly good enough to record and monitor without problems. The APB doesn't have firewire, but I won't miss it at all as this is not the boards primary function. Should I need a firewire interface I'll go to MOTU for the solution. I have owned there interfaces in the past and performance is similar if not as good. One less thing to go wrong with the board.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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Rob Gardner

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2011, 05:18:51 pm »

You hit the nail on the head. A good system is the first requirement, but it will only be as good as the application sitting on top of it. I'll be keeping my old 1640 for use as a recording interface. Combined with Cubase 5 the latency is down to 2-3ms. Better than needed for almost anything I may do and certainly good enough to record and monitor without problems. The APB doesn't have firewire, but I won't miss it at all as this is not the boards primary function. Should I need a firewire interface I'll go to MOTU for the solution. I have owned there interfaces in the past and performance is similar if not as good. One less thing to go wrong with the board.

+1 on the 1640, I have the 1641 as my recording interface, scored it in brand new condition off of CL for 2 bills, can't say enough good things about it!
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Rob Gardner
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2011, 06:38:05 pm »

I've been drooling over the manual for the new Midas Venice Firewire console for a while now, and have seen at least one positive review:

http://www.etnow.com/news/2011/4/first-tour-for-midas-digilogue-venicef-with-eliza-doolittle

I'm currently driving the 'old' Midas Venice 320 in my club and am already putting a bug in my boss's ear to upgrade at the end of the year (I know, no shame  8) ). Anyone here have any hands on with this desk?

It's a Behringer Venice with firewire, what's to know?
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Marsellus Fariss

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2011, 09:06:47 pm »

It's a Behringer Venice with firewire, what's to know?

 ::)

You hit the nail on the head. A good system is the first requirement, but it will only be as good as the application sitting on top of it. I'll be keeping my old 1640 for use as a recording interface. Combined with Cubase 5 the latency is down to 2-3ms. Better than needed for almost anything I may do and certainly good enough to record and monitor without problems. The APB doesn't have firewire, but I won't miss it at all as this is not the boards primary function. Should I need a firewire interface I'll go to MOTU for the solution. I have owned there interfaces in the past and performance is similar if not as good. One less thing to go wrong with the board.


I promise if you measure your total round trip latency from input to output with something like CEntrance test utility you'll have at least 10ms latency. Probably a few ms more. Try it and you'll see why I'm unhappy with how the software companies leave you to figure out how to use the software they sold you for $1500.

Edit: I should say you should measure the round trip latency on the buffer settings you determine is the lowest you can run at and be stable with no pops and clicks. I can only achieve 14ms round trip and that's too long for most applications.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 09:14:25 pm by Marsellus Fariss »
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Marsellus Fariss
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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2011, 09:50:38 pm »

It's a Behringer Venice with firewire, what's to know?

 ::)

You hit the nail on the head. A good system is the first requirement, but it will only be as good as the application sitting on top of it. I'll be keeping my old 1640 for use as a recording interface. Combined with Cubase 5 the latency is down to 2-3ms. Better than needed for almost anything I may do and certainly good enough to record and monitor without problems. The APB doesn't have firewire, but I won't miss it at all as this is not the boards primary function. Should I need a firewire interface I'll go to MOTU for the solution. I have owned there interfaces in the past and performance is similar if not as good. One less thing to go wrong with the board.


I promise if you measure your total round trip latency from input to output with something like CEntrance test utility you'll have at least 10ms latency. Probably a few ms more. Try it and you'll see why I'm unhappy with how the software companies leave you to figure out how to use the software they sold you for $1500.

Edit: I should say you should measure the round trip latency on the buffer settings you determine is the lowest you can run at and be stable with no pops and clicks. I can only achieve 14ms round trip and that's too long for most applications.

You shouldn't make promises you can't keep. I've done all the measurments from end to end many times while in search of the optimal configuration. In the end and after some hard work with the configuration and components, I've never clocked more than 6ms on a bad day. You might help your cause if you're able to use a 1394b adapter with your software, which you didn't name. I have to agree though, 14ms is not optimal.
 
http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10334
 
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BOSTON STRONG........
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luis Markson

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2011, 09:55:36 pm »

I promise if you measure your total round trip latency from input to output with something like CEntrance test utility
[/quote]

I can't seem to find this software via the google...


oops... Stop looking..

Does anyone know of a latency test utility for mac?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 10:02:12 pm by luis Markson »
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Marsellus Fariss

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2011, 11:11:43 pm »

[quote author=Bob Leonard
 
You shouldn't make promises you can't keep. I've done all the measurments from end to end many times while in search of the optimal configuration. In the end and after some hard work with the configuration and components, I've never clocked more than 6ms on a bad day. You might help your cause if you're able to use a 1394b adapter with your software, which you didn't name. I have to agree though, 14ms is not optimal.
 
http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10334
[/quote]

Which interface/OS and PC are you using to get those numbers Bob? I've never gotten numbers that low with any interface!
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Marsellus Fariss
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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2011, 11:34:36 am »

Which interface/OS and PC are you using to get those numbers Bob? I've never gotten numbers that low with any interface!

Currently the OS is XP, the application is Cubase 5, the system I built myself, and the interface is an Adaptec 400 series. The drivers are the ASIO drivers from Mackie. The key to success here is the application. Cubase has tremedous support for virtualy any ASIO driver and managing the buffer size is the key to success. DO NOT use directX or programs that support directX only. If you do you're wasting your time. And of course, put as much memory into the system as is possible.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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Marsellus Fariss

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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2011, 02:56:15 pm »

Currently the OS is XP, the application is Cubase 5, the system I built myself, and the interface is an Adaptec 400 series. The drivers are the ASIO drivers from Mackie. The key to success here is the application. Cubase has tremedous support for virtualy any ASIO driver and managing the buffer size is the key to success. DO NOT use directX or programs that support directX only. If you do you're wasting your time. And of course, put as much memory into the system as is possible.

So your rig is the Mackie 1640, a stout PC running XP, Adaptec 400 firewire card and Cubase as a host?

This is the best info I've found on doing this. I've posted several times in several forums about building a cheap but robust platform for this application and nobody's offered any advice. Thanks for that! If you say you can get the 1640's round trip down that low with a good host app I'll start looking for a Mackie interface! :) I wonder if the rest of their interfaces have as good of drivers?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 02:57:51 pm by Marsellus Fariss »
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Marsellus Fariss
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Re: any drive time on the Midas Venice F?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2011, 06:54:36 pm »

Marsellus,
I was able to acheive pretty much the same performance using MOTU 24 channel interfaces as well. Again, the performance is derived from the applications capabilities in combination with the ASIO driver.
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