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Author Topic: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00  (Read 20389 times)

Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2011, 07:33:53 pm »

Back to the original topic, I don't believe that PreSonus and Phonic manufacturer on a chip/component level, have manufacturing or technical resources or sell in quantities that would give them some distinct advantage over Yamaha and others.

I don't know that anyone would need to manufacture or develop new chips to produce a competitive digital console.

It's not uncommon for different manufacturers to use the same key components. For example, both Behringer and Presonus rely on Analog Devices' SHARC digital signal processing chips (maybe even the same chip, for that matter). The cheap manufacturers have no qualms about bragging that they "use the same chip" (or architecture) as in more expensive product lines in order to convince you that their product is just as good as something costing twice as much or more.

The difference comes down to the supporting hardware: the quality and design of the discrete components and circuitry interfacing with the DSP chip can make a huge difference in both audio quality and system reliability. With an "expensive" brand you aren't necessarily paying for different technology or capability; the cost is in the more meticulous engineering and manufacture of better supporting components.

The used market is a good means test for the quality of a product. The more of a well-used (well-loved?) but fully-functional item you see on Craigslist and Ebay, the better the new product is likely to be.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 07:36:15 pm by Jonathan Johnson »
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2011, 10:46:15 pm »

Back to the original topic, I don't believe that PreSonus and Phonic manufacturer on a chip/component level, have manufacturing or technical resources or sell in quantities that would give them some distinct advantage over Yamaha and others.

I don't know that anyone would need to manufacture or develop new chips to produce a competitive digital console.

It's not uncommon for different manufacturers to use the same key components. For example, both Behringer and Presonus rely on Analog Devices' SHARC digital signal processing chips (maybe even the same chip, for that matter). The cheap manufacturers have no qualms about bragging that they "use the same chip" (or architecture) as in more expensive product lines in order to convince you that their product is just as good as something costing twice as much or more.
Since I was the one who mentioned custom silicon, i guess I will expand upon that. Yes, today in 2011 you can design a serviceable digital mixer using off the shelf parts. I am even aware of one digital console development program (no not Peavey) that developed their own custom silicon (it was one of their "strengths"), but unfortunately they didn't know dip squat about consoles, and never made it to market.

Yamaha is one of the few majors in pro audio with the chops and muscle to roll their own silicon, but that muscle comes from the consumer side, pro audio has always been forced to piggyback on consumer funded technology, like digital audio itself, for one obvious example (think CD players).
Quote
The difference comes down to the supporting hardware: the quality and design of the discrete components and circuitry interfacing with the DSP chip can make a huge difference in both audio quality and system reliability. With an "expensive" brand you aren't necessarily paying for different technology or capability; the cost is in the more meticulous engineering and manufacture of better supporting components.
Execution, execution, execution...  Analog consoles are not rocket science so why are there so few successful console companies? Think about it.  8)
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The used market is a good means test for the quality of a product. The more of a well-used (well-loved?) but fully-functional item you see on Craigslist and Ebay, the better the new product is likely to be.

Long time to wait to vet cutting edge new technology... Kind of an impossible catch-22 for the new guy.   
=====

Like I said before, we need to hear from a few folks who have used the new mixer in real world situations.. I am not smart enough to predict if they did a good job or not, with so little real data.

JR
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Brad Weber

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Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2011, 07:16:12 am »

Back to the original topic, I don't believe that PreSonus and Phonic manufacturer on a chip/component level, have manufacturing or technical resources or sell in quantities that would give them some distinct advantage over Yamaha and others.

I don't know that anyone would need to manufacture or develop new chips to produce a competitive digital console.
But I didn't say anything about new chips, I was simply saying that it seems unlikely that Phonic is using components that aren't available to others or paying significantly less than others for the components thus that is probably not that much of a significant factor in the cost.

Digital consoles are basically a computer whose peripherals include a control surface,  analog<-> digital converters, and analog buffer/amplifiers.  There is no lack of off-the-shelf parts to perform these functions. Many of these parts are continually improving in terms of price/performance.
As has already been pointed out, there is much more to the costs associated with a product than just the components and production.  Unless you cut costs in those other areas it takes a relatively large difference in the physical product cost to make any significant difference in the overall product cost, so it may be in some of those other areas that some of the reductions occur.  Who knows, maybe Phonic was working with someone else who was paying for most or all of the development costs for a new product and it got dropped or that partner went under, leaving Phonic with much of the development costs already covered.  My point was simply that the reason for the significantly lower price does not seem to be obvious and thus while their may be reviews addressing the specs and sound of the console, I'm also interested in comments on the reliability, support, etc. from people that have used it in live sound applications.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 10:06:49 pm by Brad Weber »
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Brian Ehlers

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Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2011, 07:47:41 pm »

The #1 driver of the cost of a console is the quantity and quality of the controls of its user interface (faders, pots, knobs, switches, and LEDs).
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2011, 08:37:54 pm »

I have no idea if the Phonic is a good mixer. What I do know from sad experience is that buying inexpensive gear for myself and finding out it was not a bargain feels bad, but buying inexpensive gear with church money and finding out it was no bargain feels awful.  I won't do it again.

I will buy quality used gear at a bargain price, I'l buy undervalued gear that has been proven, but never again will I gamble on low end gear with the churches money.

Just one opinion.
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Kent Thompson

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Re: More compressors is not always a good thing
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2011, 01:54:03 am »

+1 to Mac's and Taylor's comments.  When addressing dynamics and related feedback a compressor is not going to alleviate all acoustical, system or operational factors, it won't replace an operator and if applied improperly, it can make things worse.

Thanks Guys,

If I reduce the compression will I need a limiter to keep the record volume from clipping?

Thanks for your help.

All the Best, Dan



If it is clipping then reduce the gain on the input till it stops clipping. It sounds like your gain structure is out of whack and you are trying to fix it with a compressor. Set your input gain first.
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Dan Andrews

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Re: More compressors is not always a good thing
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2011, 09:07:40 am »

Thanks Kent,
Quote from: Kent Thompson link=topic=1576.msg[size=12pt
[/size]16732#msg16732 date=1307858043]
Thanks Guys,

If I reduce the compression will I need a limiter to keep the record volume from clipping?

Thanks for your help.

All the Best, Dan




If it is clipping then reduce the gain on the input till it stops clipping.

If I reduce the gain, when the minister talks quietly I don't have enough volume. I am trying to over come a very wide dynamic range.
It sounds like your gain structure is out of whack and you are trying to fix it with a compressor. Set your input gain first.

All the Best, Dan
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Kent Thompson

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Re: More compressors is not always a good thing
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2011, 07:21:09 pm »



Ok I miss read the post. You were talking about the recording not the input to the mixer my bad...that's what I get for posting in the middle of the night...

Thanks Kent,
Thanks Guys,

If I reduce the compression will I need a limiter to keep the record volume from clipping?

Thanks for your help.

All the Best, Dan




If it is clipping then reduce the gain on the input till it stops clipping.

If I reduce the gain, when the minister talks quietly I don't have enough volume. I am trying to over come a very wide dynamic range.  
It sounds like your gain structure is out of whack and you are trying to fix it with a compressor. Set your input gain first.

All the Best, Dan



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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: More compressors is not always a good thing
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2011, 07:21:09 pm »


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