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Author Topic: new member needs advice for new install  (Read 2256 times)

Daniel Lowe

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new member needs advice for new install
« on: May 10, 2011, 10:51:03 pm »

Hey everyone! My name is Daniel. I just found this site and i strongly believe it's gonna be a USEFUL tool for me.
I am doing an install for my friend's church in cartersville GA. They are providing a mackie board and the room is setup so that it'd be awkward to run 2 clusters of mains so im looking at setting up 3 hanging in the middle above the stage and run them mono. My main confusion is how should i set up the amps for them? I was hoping to just daisy chain the 3 together and run from one amp, but im not sure how to set it up.
can you help me out with this confusion?
Its a small room so trying to run stereo is unneccessary, so that is not an issue, I'd like to keep it mono, but run 3 mains mono off of one amp or should i get 2 and bridge them to have the proper power output?

im also trying to decide between EAW VR51's and community CPL43-94B's. any recommendations either way?
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Brad Weber

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Re: new member needs advice for new install
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2011, 07:55:17 am »

Hey everyone! My name is Daniel. I just found this site and i strongly believe it's gonna be a USEFUL tool for me.
I am doing an install for my friend's church in cartersville GA. They are providing a mackie board and the room is setup so that it'd be awkward to run 2 clusters of mains so im looking at setting up 3 hanging in the middle above the stage and run them mono. My main confusion is how should i set up the amps for them? I was hoping to just daisy chain the 3 together and run from one amp, but im not sure how to set it up.
can you help me out with this confusion?
Its a small room so trying to run stereo is unneccessary, so that is not an issue, I'd like to keep it mono, but run 3 mains mono off of one amp or should i get 2 and bridge them to have the proper power output?

im also trying to decide between EAW VR51's and community CPL43-94B's. any recommendations either way?
You need to start by changing your displayed name to your real, full name, it notes that near the top of every forum page and the thread will pretty quickly be locked if you do not comply.
 
What is your background and experience with system design and installation?  A couple of your comments suggest a situation that may benefit significantly from some professional design and installation assistance.
 
A center array of three 80 to 90 degree horizontal pattern speakers would be a good approach ionly in rather specific situations so it may be best to start back at the beginning with defining the situation before asking for comments on a proposed solution.  Knowing something about the space, their services, their expectations, how they use the system and so on, would really help otherwise there is not much upon which to base any comments or recommendations. 
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: new member needs advice for new install
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2011, 08:16:44 am »

You need to start by changing your displayed name to your real, full name, it notes that near the top of every forum page and the thread will pretty quickly be locked if you do not comply.
 
What is your background and experience with system design and installation?  A couple of your comments suggest a situation that may benefit significantly from some professional design and installation assistance.
 
A center array of three 80 to 90 degree horizontal pattern speakers would be a good approach ionly in rather specific situations so it may be best to start back at the beginning with defining the situation before asking for comments on a proposed solution.  Knowing something about the space, their services, their expectations, how they use the system and so on, would really help otherwise there is not much upon which to base any comments or recommendations.

 +1 and....

  Your experience will be directly proportional to the results of this install....

  No experience= terrible results.  Do you have rigging experience?  Do you carry liability insurance? Do you know the Local, and State Electrical codes?  Have you tested the room....run any acoustic tests?  What are these tests requiring in regards to speaker placement?  Do you need acoustic treatments of any type?

  If you can't answer any of these questions.....I'd suggest you pass on this install. 
 
 Hammer
 
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: new member needs advice for new install
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2011, 10:14:27 am »

+1 and....

  Your experience will be directly proportional to the results of this install....

  No experience= terrible results.  Do you have rigging experience?  Do you carry liability insurance? Do you know the Local, and State Electrical codes?  Have you tested the room....run any acoustic tests?  What are these tests requiring in regards to speaker placement?  Do you need acoustic treatments of any type?

  If you can't answer any of these questions.....I'd suggest you pass on this install. 
 
 Hammer
 

I agree.  Installs are serious business with long-term responsibility and liability issues.  Depending on your area, there may also be licensing issues.  If you have to ask these questions here it would imply that you are not qualified to take on the responsibilities implicit in the job.  The best you can do is help them find a licensed, bonded and experienced outfit to do it correctly and safely.

Pass or pass it on.
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Daniel Lowe

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Re: new member needs advice for new install
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2011, 10:30:14 am »

+1 and....

  Your experience will be directly proportional to the results of this install....

  No experience= terrible results.  Do you have rigging experience?  Do you carry liability insurance? Do you know the Local, and State Electrical codes?  Have you tested the room....run any acoustic tests?  What are these tests requiring in regards to speaker placement?  Do you need acoustic treatments of any type?

  If you can't answer any of these questions.....I'd suggest you pass on this install. 
 
 Hammer
 
My name is Daniel Lowe. i filled that out on part of the registration form and i thought that it would be put onto the place where everyone else's name is. I thought the username was just for sign in purposes. I tried to figure out how to change it but I do not see how. can anyone help me with this?

I am going in today to do some final measurements. the room is a 40x40 square. The ceiling is slanted from probably 20 feet in on the left side of the room to probably 35 or so on the right side.(again, going to measure today). the stage was already built into one corner of the room as a quarter circle and the opposing corner is where they've decided to put the sound booth. this was all predesigned and installed before i was brought in. The room is for their youth group. They are planning for this install to be overkill in the beginning but hope to grow into it. Their philosophy is to do more now instead of having to go back later and redo it to match their needs down the road. they plan to use the room primarily on wednesday night/sunday services, but they also hope to rent the room out to local FCA's and all of those other things.

i am looking to do a simple yet powerful setup so that it can be run easily and still sound as good as possible.

I do know a good bit about rigging, but i do not have the insurance, I am also going to talk to the church about that today to see what they want to do about it. all the electricity is preinstalled as well. I have not run acoustic tests because 2 of the interior walls are not built yet. I will need acoustic treatment, i was planning on using foam panels placed on the back two walls to kill reflection as much as possible.

they are not looking for incredibly perfect audio, they are not looking to have a professional show or have huge services in there. the room can fit probably 200 kids max.

i appologize for my poor first post, i posted in a hurry last night and didnt think it all through.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: new member needs advice for new install
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2011, 10:36:24 am »

......i do not have the insurance, I am also going to talk to the church about that today to see what they want to do about it.

It makes no difference if a client decides to go with an unlicensed, uninsured installer.  The liability issues do not disappear.  You would still be liable for any damage or injury resulting from your work.  And this is not a one gig install.  The liability is an issue for as long as the system is in use. 
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: new member needs advice for new install
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2011, 12:31:56 pm »


In a room that size youwill have all kinds of interactions if you try to use wide coverage boxes

Instead of going for a quantity-go for a single box that will give you the output and coverage needed.  It will sound a lot better.

3 times cheap mean worse sounding (just louder) boxes and all the interactions that go along with it. 

If you are suggesting foam for acoustic treatment MAKE SURE you use fire retardant foam-or be ready to give everything you own away in case of a future problem.  PEOPLE CAN DIE if you use the wrong stuff!!!
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Brad Weber

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Re: new member needs advice for new install
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2011, 12:39:34 pm »

My name is Daniel Lowe. i filled that out on part of the registration form and i thought that it would be put onto the place where everyone else's name is. I thought the username was just for sign in purposes. I tried to figure out how to change it but I do not see how. can anyone help me with this?
Toward the top of the page select "Profile", then "Modify Profile" and select "Account Settings", you'll then see a box for "Name" that says "This is the displayed name that people will see."

Their philosophy is to do more now instead of having to go back later and redo it to match their needs down the road. they plan to use the room primarily on wednesday night/sunday services, but they also hope to rent the room out to local FCA's and all of those other things.

i am looking to do a simple yet powerful setup so that it can be run easily and still sound as good as possible.
I have not run acoustic tests because 2 of the interior walls are not built yet. I will need acoustic treatment, i was planning on using foam panels placed on the back two walls to kill reflection as much as possible.

they are not looking for incredibly perfect audio, they are not looking to have a professional show or have huge services in there. the room can fit probably 200 kids max.
These are good examples of the very issues involved in installed systems that sometimes trip up even people very experienced with audio systems and their use. Some finishes that may be fine for home studio or even commercial studio use may not be acceptable by code for use in public assembly spaces, so you need to make sure that anything suggested is appropriate for that application.  Using the system for anything other than religious services brings up potential copyrights issues and renting the space to outside parties raises the potential of the space and systems having to be ADA compliant, such as including an ALS system.  And what conduit is being provided may greatly drive the system design or at least whether plenum or riser rated cable is required to be used.  These are simply examples of some of the construction and code factors that can relate to installed systems.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: new member needs advice for new install
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2011, 01:47:22 pm »


I am going in today to do some final measurements. the room is a 40x40 square. The ceiling is slanted from probably 20 feet in on the left side of the room to probably 35 or so on the right side.(again, going to measure today). the stage was already built into one corner of the room as a quarter circle and the opposing corner is where they've decided to put the sound booth. this was all predesigned and installed before i was brought in. The room is for their youth group.

The likely place for any sound absorbing panels will likely be at the mix position to minimize any reflection affecting the mix person.

Quote
They are planning for this install to be overkill in the beginning but hope to grow into it. Their philosophy is to do more now instead of having to go back later and redo it to match their needs down the road.

If this is the case, then look at building the interior walls with the proper materials in the first place rather than adding sound treatment afterwards.  Think not so much of absorption, but of dispersion.  Avoid flat surfaces.  Half-rounds or any simple curve in a wall surface will keep the sound live but avoid the worst reflections of a flat surface.

Quote

i am looking to do a simple yet powerful setup so that it can be run easily and still sound as good as possible.


As Ivan said, less is likely more here.  Two rules apply:

1.  Keep the sound off of the walls and ceiling in the first place.

2.  Keep the sound on the listeners, remembering that they themselves are sound absorbers.

Listen carefully to Brad.  He's in the business and has started to tell you of all the ramifications involved.
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