ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down

Author Topic: Craigslist Soundman  (Read 10648 times)

frank kayser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1437
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2011, 04:41:03 pm »

Interesting discussion -

Being entirely serious, does that also mean that any band, or individual performer, would need to carry similar liability insurance? 

Also, it was mentioned the phrase "for pay"...  How would that change the legal argument for a sound company? A bar band? An individual performer?
Logged

Brian Ehlers

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 126
  • West Michigan
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2011, 04:58:29 pm »

I don't think very many municipalities require individuals, bands, or sound companies to carry liability insurance.  But, as with any business, the smart ones incorporate themselves and do buy insurance.  You've got to ask yourself if you're willing to lose in a lawsuit your personal assets (money, house, car, gear) -- both those assets you have today and future earnings.  Remember, anyone can sue anyone for anything.  All it takes is a sympathetic jury to rule against you.  The lead singer chucked a beer bottle into the crowd and skulled someone?  They could name you, the sound man, in the lawsuit and perhaps convince the jury that you were in part responsible.  After all, he was standing on your wedge when he chucked it.

Or you could take the other approach and assume that the poorer you are and the less insurance you carry the less likely anyone will make the effort to sue you.  Your call.
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2011, 05:35:00 pm »

I don't think very many municipalities require ...............  sound companies to carry liability insurance.

In my city (St Paul, MN) you can't even get a parking meter hooded for your truck or van without proof of $2 million in liability insurance.  Neither can you work for anyone in a city park or on any city owned land without said policy.  All the non-profits I work for (90% of my business) require proof of insurance.  When a new client asks why my bid is not the lowest, I ask them if the low bidder has insurance.  9 out of 10  times they don't, and they don't get the job.

DR 
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Randall Hyde

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 597
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2011, 06:53:05 pm »

I don't think very many municipalities require individuals, bands, or sound companies to carry liability insurance. 
Wow. I do a lot of business with municipalities. Not only have they all required that I carry liability insurance (and name them on my policy), they've also demanded $2million (about twice what other people have required).

Quote
But, as with any business, the smart ones incorporate themselves and do buy insurance.  You've got to ask yourself if you're willing to lose in a lawsuit your personal assets (money, house, car, gear) -- both those assets you have today and future earnings.  Remember, anyone can sue anyone for anything.  All it takes is a sympathetic jury to rule against you.  The lead singer chucked a beer bottle into the crowd and skulled someone?  They could name you, the sound man, in the lawsuit and perhaps convince the jury that you were in part responsible.  After all, he was standing on your wedge when he chucked it.
Or a fire occurred and you equipment was plugged into the electrical system that caught fire.
Or some rowdy patrons decided to start pulling on DMX cables and knocked a light tree over into the crowd (I've had that one happen -- they were playing tug of war with my cables and I couldn't get there fast enough to stop them; I watched in horror as a light tree took out a $1,600 synthesizer).

Quote
Or you could take the other approach and assume that the poorer you are and the less insurance you carry the less likely anyone will make the effort to sue you.  Your call.
Regardless of how poor you claim to be, you've lost all your gear at that point. Is it worth it? Then again, if you're doing $90 gigs, the gear can't be worth that much, right?

I still haven't moved out of the garage and already I've run up to the limits of what I can charge for gigs in my local area. I do this for fun, so it's not that big of a deal for me, but I don't want to *lose* money, no matter how much fun it is. I can't wait  :-[ until I've grown to the point I *have* to get warehouse space; that's easily going to double my costs.  Going to have to graduate to much bigger shows at that point. Bottom line is that I figured every show I show up to costs me about $200 before I unload a single piece of gear; that covers indirect costs such as equipment amortization (loss, theft, wear and tear), consumables (e.g., gaf tape), insurance, marketing, and such, but no labor, rental, or transportation cost; nor does it include gear storage and maintenance (free in my garage, and my time is free on those). Once in a while I'll do a small (speakers on sticks) show under $500 for a regular client who needs something simple (like a library grand opening), but it's getting real hard to justify even that. I remember the day when $250 seemed like a decent rate for a two-hour show; couldn't touch it now. That's just part of growing up.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 06:58:35 pm by Randall Hyde »
Logged

Randall Hyde

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 597
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2011, 06:53:49 pm »

Interesting discussion -

Being entirely serious, does that also mean that any band, or individual performer, would need to carry similar liability insurance? 

Also, it was mentioned the phrase "for pay"...  How would that change the legal argument for a sound company? A bar band? An individual performer?
I would have insurance, no matter what.
Logged

duane massey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1535
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2011, 08:02:48 pm »

Most smaller one- or 2- man companies around here do not carry insurance. It is not required by law, but some clients do require it (most of these are not in the bottom-feeder market).
A one-man company is not required to carry anything, including workman's comp, etc, if they don't choose to.

I am a one-man company and carry absolutely nothing, can't afford it. I do a lot of sub-contract work for larger companies who do carry it, and I work under their policy.

I don't know of a single band that carries any type of insurance in the local market. Laws differ from state to state, and city to city, so one size does not fit all.
Logged
Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8908
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2011, 08:50:00 pm »

I am a one-man company and carry absolutely nothing, can't afford it. I do a lot of sub-contract work for larger companies who do carry it, and I work under their policy.

Are you sure their policy would cover if anything should happen?
In most situations the sub contractors are required to carry their own insurance.
I would be sure-rather than going on a "well Jim said so"-but Jim really didn't know the policy.

You may be fine.  Or not.  All it takes is one little incident to really screw things up.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

James Feenstra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2011, 02:13:49 am »

Being entirely serious, does that also mean that any band, or individual performer, would need to carry similar liability insurance?
its not a bad idea...

there have been several musicians sued for 'pushing people off stage' when in reality the person was stage diving after running up and grabbing the performer, although due to the punter being injured they win the lawsuit

personally I carry a 2 million dollar liability policy even though I mainly subcontract to other companies. This policy covers everything except pyrotechnics, which I can get temporary permits for whenever someone hires me as a pyro tech, and assures that if for some reason the company i'm contracting to wants to turn around and try to sue me in the event something happens on a show I'm STILL protected.

A pyro liability contract would cost roughly 4x what i pay now yearly, if not more, and i don't do nearly enough of it to justify the cost at the current time.

As for craigslist, well, I've gotten some decent (high paying) gigs off there...and there's a local labor company that deals with some fairly large venues (ie. the local stadium) that very frequently puts adds for stagehands up there...
Logged
Elevation Audiovisual
www.elevationav.com
Taking your events to the next level

duane massey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1535
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2011, 03:08:05 am »

Ivan, the sub work I do is covered by the companies I work for. These are typically larger installations that the companies need more qualified labor than they carry full-time. Seems to be the norm in this are, as almost all the mid-level companies (including my former employer) have gone under. There are a number of small 1-- or 2-man companies that use subs for all their install.
Upside is that I can charge more per hour or contract; downside is no steady income or benefits.

As a musician I can tell you that I have never worked with a band that carried any form of insurance, and the pay is always contract. Houston is a pretty wide-open town, as is most of Texas. Some of the restrictions that are common elsewhere just don't exist here. A surprising number of my own clients are in unincorporated areas that have no inspections, fire marshals, or even building codes.

Certainly the bigger jobs are more in line with what you deal with, but (other than some sub work) nearly all of my clients are low-budget bottom-feeders.
Logged
Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2209
  • Marietta, GA
Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2011, 10:15:07 am »

Are you sure their policy would cover if anything should happen?
In most situations the sub contractors are required to carry their own insurance.
In fact it's pretty common for Contractors to require their subs to not only have insurance but to also name the Contractor on that insurance.  I believe that main reason is so that any claim resulting from the sub's work can go direct to the sub's policy and coverage and not have to involve the Contractor's coverage or affect their claims record.  I've also encountered Contracts that required the Prime Contractor to agree to any Subcontractors used meeting the same requirements defined for the Prime Contractor.
 
Ivan, the sub work I do is covered by the companies I work for. These are typically larger installations that the companies need more qualified labor than they carry full-time. Seems to be the norm in this are, as almost all the mid-level companies (including my former employer) have gone under. There are a number of small 1-- or 2-man companies that use subs for all their install.
Upside is that I can charge more per hour or contract; downside is no steady income or benefits.
While general commercial liability policies may cover 1099 independent contractors, professional liability policies generally do not cover subcontractors.  If a sub 'rides' on the Contractors insurance then the Contractor is assuming the risks and incurring the costs as though you were an employee, so it is realistic to pay someone in that situation less than someone who provides their own coverage.  Along the same lines, relying on being covered under their insurance could also be seen as one more step toward being considered an employee rather than an independent contractor.
 
Certainly the bigger jobs are more in line with what you deal with, but (other than some sub work) nearly all of my clients are low-budget bottom-feeders.
Bottom feeders often have good Attorneys and/or may be looking for ways to make money or avoid paying for your services, so in some ways they can be a greater risk.  It is also unusual for the Contracts I've encountered that contain any general commercial or comprehensive liability insurance requirements to differentiate based on the size of the provider or the scale and scope of the work or services, they simply state that to do any work with that party you have to meet the defined requirements.
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Craigslist Soundman
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2011, 10:15:07 am »


Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.044 seconds with 22 queries.