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Author Topic: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs  (Read 9915 times)

Rowan Smales

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QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« on: April 27, 2011, 04:36:04 am »

If you're one of the good chaps who responded to me on HarmonyCentral, please ignore this, The general opinion there was that they'd be 'on the edge' of working. I'd just like to get opinions from a couple of places.

I've got an opportunity to get a good deal on these K10s, but has anybody any experience of running these as tops for smallish gigs, say 100 people?

Its for a wedding band (funk, pop, disco) also for acoustic instrument reinforcement with a ceilidh band (violin, flute, ac guitar.

I've heard the QSC K10s, they sounded excellent but were noticeably quieter than Mackie SRM450s (for example).

I can't find any user reviews where the user has micced drums etc. and put them through the K10s. I'm not suggesting miccing the kit for volume reasons, just for a presence lift - so all the sound is coming from one place. I'm no pro tech, but I'm pretty sure my thinking is correct there?

I will be using a sub for any gigs where drums/bass are micced.

Instruments:

Vocals
Guitar (me, low volume, micced valve amp)
Bass (DI)
Drums (micced kick, snare, 2 OHs) not a loud drummer
Keys
Up to 3 horns, micced.


Appreciate your thoughts.
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Russel Murton

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2011, 06:42:24 am »

If you're one of the good chaps who responded to me on HarmonyCentral, please ignore this, The general opinion there was that they'd be 'on the edge' of working. I'd just like to get opinions from a couple of places.

I've got an opportunity to get a good deal on these K10s, but has anybody any experience of running these as tops for smallish gigs, say 100 people?

Its for a wedding band (funk, pop, disco) also for acoustic instrument reinforcement with a ceilidh band (violin, flute, ac guitar.

I've heard the QSC K10s, they sounded excellent but were noticeably quieter than Mackie SRM450s (for example).

I can't find any user reviews where the user has micced drums etc. and put them through the K10s. I'm not suggesting miccing the kit for volume reasons, just for a presence lift - so all the sound is coming from one place. I'm no pro tech, but I'm pretty sure my thinking is correct there?

I will be using a sub for any gigs where drums/bass are micced.

Instruments:

Vocals
Guitar (me, low volume, micced valve amp)
Bass (DI)
Drums (micced kick, snare, 2 OHs) not a loud drummer
Keys
Up to 3 horns, micced.


Appreciate your thoughts.

With that many inputs I'd just jump to the K12's or KW122's and add a Ksub or KW181 when needed for larger gigs. Honestly for that many inputs which occupy similar frequencies the K10 will get overwhelmed and not give you your desired volume. Jumping to the K12 or KW122 will give you more headroom, a larger speaker and the ability to do larger gigs without worrying about pushing your speakers too much.

I think the K10's are marketed more towards covering less inputs for the same amount of people and as monitors and such.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2011, 10:11:34 am »

If you're one of the good chaps who responded to me on HarmonyCentral, please ignore this, The general opinion there was that they'd be 'on the edge' of working. I'd just like to get opinions from a couple of places.

I've got an opportunity to get a good deal on these K10s, but has anybody any experience of running these as tops for smallish gigs, say 100 people?

Its for a wedding band (funk, pop, disco) also for acoustic instrument reinforcement with a ceilidh band (violin, flute, ac guitar.

I've heard the QSC K10s, they sounded excellent but were noticeably quieter than Mackie SRM450s (for example).

I can't find any user reviews where the user has micced drums etc. and put them through the K10s. I'm not suggesting miccing the kit for volume reasons, just for a presence lift - so all the sound is coming from one place. I'm no pro tech, but I'm pretty sure my thinking is correct there?

I will be using a sub for any gigs where drums/bass are micced.

Instruments:

Vocals
Guitar (me, low volume, micced valve amp)
Bass (DI)
Drums (micced kick, snare, 2 OHs) not a loud drummer
Keys
Up to 3 horns, micced.


Appreciate your thoughts.

   Rowan,
  With  all you've got happening on the stage, I'd suggest a something with a bit more substance.   Go up a few notches.  And, never without subs, unless it's a gig for Book signings, or town hall meetings.

   Good Luck,
 Hammer
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Rowan Smales

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2011, 11:51:08 am »

Thanks Charlie, Russel,


   Rowan,
  With  all you've got happening on the stage, I'd suggest a something with a bit more substance.   Go up a few notches.  And, never without subs, unless it's a gig for Book signings, or town hall meetings.

   Good Luck,
 Hammer

What do you mean by a few notches? any examples? are you suggesting a larger driver or more power?

With that many inputs I'd just jump to the K12's or KW122's and add a Ksub or KW181 when needed for larger gigs. Honestly for that many inputs which occupy similar frequencies the K10 will get overwhelmed and not give you your desired volume. Jumping to the K12 or KW122 will give you more headroom, a larger speaker and the ability to do larger gigs without worrying about pushing your speakers too much.

Why would the K10 have less headroom than the K12? What makes a speaker like the K10 have trouble with similar freq ranges?

(im not disbelieving you, just asking)


Jumping up a stage is out of my budget at this moment. I can get the pair of K10s for GBP £1000 (Uk rrp is 1500 for the pair) there's no way I can spend more, so Ive got three options...

1)I buy a stop-gap - SRM-450s maybe and wait till I can spend more on mains.

2)I buy the K10s and then sell them or use them as monitors when I can buy new mains.

3)I leave the money in the bank and keep on hiring crap gear and bleeding money.

What things would you guys suggest as a few notches up? Over on HC they suggested RCF ART312-A (actually a cheaper speaker) and JBL PRX612, as well as the KW122.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2011, 01:15:47 pm »

I would look into the new stuff from yamaha. Honestly I wouldn't want to tackle a band of this size with any pole mount speakers. Especially if there is only 1 sub.

Systems to look at would be the yamaha DSR215 if no subs are used, or the DSR118 with a DSR112 or 115 mounted on top per side.

Also the new Mackie HD series would work, but I am leery of their service after the sale. Mackie doesn't have the best track record in this area.

The JBL prx600 series has about the same stuff too. Everyone seems to be pretty happy with this line. It also says JBL on the front and for some people that means a lot.


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Rich Grisier

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2011, 01:46:59 pm »

I've a pair of K10's and a pair of SRM450's.  I didn't notice the K10's to be quieter than the 450's, but I did notice they sound more even/smooth.  The 450's have a bite to them that is tough for me to dial out.

If you're getting a good deal on them, then maybe just try them out to see what they can do.  If they don't work for you then you could probably turn them an not take a loss.

I use a pair of U15's & LS808's for FOH and sometimes I'll bring the K10's along and use them as fills for larger rooms.  Sometimes I'll test the system by bringing the U15's down and just run off the K10's.  I'm surprised at how well the K10's keep up.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 01:49:38 pm by Rich Grisier »
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Geoff Doane

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2011, 01:49:53 pm »

Why would the K10 have less headroom than the K12? What makes a speaker like the K10 have trouble with similar freq ranges?

(im not disbelieving you, just asking)


The K10 and K12 have the same power, but with a wider dispersion on the horn, and the 10 being somewhat less sensitive than the 12, the maximum output spec is 2 dB lower on the K10.  The K10 won't go as low either, but I don't think that's a factor if you'll always add a sub(s) when bass and drums are mic'd.  (The K12 doesn't really go low enough by itself either, IMHO)

Personally, if I was in your shoes, I'd go with the K10s, even if they eventually get moved to monitor duty (where they should be more than adequate).  The older I get, the more I believe that quality trumps volume for the kind of gigs which you describe (and I've done many of them over the last 25-30 years).

GTD
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Gary Phillips

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2011, 02:25:43 pm »

I'm curious - what does the number of inputs have to do with the choice of speakers?  The OP spec'd a crowd size of 100 ppl.  I am ASSuming that the OP will use some sort of mixer to feed the speakers; that is, he won't be using the multiple mic inputs available on some of the powered speakers.

gp
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Rowan Smales

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2011, 03:12:55 pm »

I'm curious - what does the number of inputs have to do with the choice of speakers?  The OP spec'd a crowd size of 100 ppl.  I am ASSuming that the OP will use some sort of mixer to feed the speakers; that is, he won't be using the multiple mic inputs available on some of the powered speakers.

gp

Yeah, I will be - a Peavey 14 channel. I presume that Russel meant that lots of similar freq instruments - horns, keys, guitar will lead to more chance of peaking, but I could be misunderstanding.
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Geoff Doane

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2011, 03:16:38 pm »

I'm curious - what does the number of inputs have to do with the choice of speakers?  The OP spec'd a crowd size of 100 ppl.  I am ASSuming that the OP will use some sort of mixer to feed the speakers; that is, he won't be using the multiple mic inputs available on some of the powered speakers.

gp

I think the assumption is that a larger band will be louder by itself on stage, and the PA will need to be louder to "overpower" the band.

GTD
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Tim Weaver

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2011, 03:56:38 pm »

I'm curious - what does the number of inputs have to do with the choice of speakers?  The OP spec'd a crowd size of 100 ppl.  I am ASSuming that the OP will use some sort of mixer to feed the speakers; that is, he won't be using the multiple mic inputs available on some of the powered speakers.

gp

I think the assumption is that a larger band will be louder by itself on stage, and the PA will need to be louder to "overpower" the band.

GTD

Yes. Put some k10's up against a wild drummer and a 3 piece horn section and see how far you get.....
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Ned Ward

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2011, 12:20:15 am »

With that band and 100 people, you're not going to put everything through the PA.

Kick, Snare, OH, Bass DI - forget it. the drums acoustically by themselves will be loud enough for that many people.

Use the K10's for vocals, keys and horns and you should be fine. I'd imagine unless you have a Princeton or a 5 watt Mini Z your guitar amp on its own will carry 100 people fine. Not even sure you'd need them for horns, although I have no experience playing with a horn section (though I want one for our band).

While you could buy a sub, try mixing with less inputs first and see how it goes with just 2 speakers on a stick.

Our band has 2 guitarists, bass, keys, drums and 3-4 vocalists; we usually just run vocals and keys through 2 QSC HPR122i's and manage the stage volume with the rest.
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Rob Truesdell

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2011, 01:03:35 am »

Im probably sticking my foot in my mouth here but Im with Gary above. Why would a 12" woofer work better than a 10" at reproducing the amount of instruments or inputs?

Assuming that the OP is using subs and the crossover point is around 100hz. I understand that the K12 has a few more db's over the K10 and maybe the tighter coverage might project a bit better at a greater distance from the speakers or FOH, but will a 10" woofer struggle at 100hz more so than a 12" woofer? (within a normal output level)

Ive done a few weddings with up to around 250 waterbags with a pair of quality subs (SRX718 and VRX918SP) and a pair of FBT Maxx4a tops and had no issues what so ever with coverage or SPL needs. the FBT's has a max SPL output of 123db which is quite a bit less than the 127db's of the K10. (dont know if the K10's can run with the FBT's though, thats another thread)
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Russel Murton

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2011, 01:24:01 am »

Im probably sticking my foot in my mouth here but Im with Gary above. Why would a 12" woofer work better than a 10" at reproducing the amount of instruments or inputs?

Assuming that the OP is using subs and the crossover point is around 100hz. I understand that the K12 has a few more db's over the K10 and maybe the tighter coverage might project a bit better at a greater distance from the speakers or FOH, but will a 10" woofer struggle at 100hz more so than a 12" woofer? (within a normal output level)

Ive done a few weddings with up to around 250 waterbags with a pair of quality subs (SRX718 and VRX918SP) and a pair of FBT Maxx4a tops and had no issues what so ever with coverage or SPL needs. the FBT's has a max SPL output of 123db which is quite a bit less than the 127db's of the K10. (dont know if the K10's can run with the FBT's though, thats another thread)

My experience tells me that a 12" will be a lot clearer representing similar frequencies when a 10" may get overwhelmed trying to produce the lower mids where a lot of those instruments reside.

The lower extension of the K12 compared to the K10 will give you much better low mid representation and should give a bit more room to breath as the speaker will not have to move as much with fighting instruments.

I would get K10's now, shift them to monitors later when you buy maybe a pair of KW122's and some KW181's.

Also see if you can afford a pair of Yamaha DSR112's compared to the K10's. They are brillant speakers and are suprisingly cheap. A pair of them and two of their subs should be able to do your band with ease.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2011, 07:14:48 am »

With that band and 100 people, you're not going to put everything through the PA.

Kick, Snare, OH, Bass DI - forget it. the drums acoustically by themselves will be loud enough for that many people.

Use the K10's for vocals, keys and horns and you should be fine. I'd imagine unless you have a Princeton or a 5 watt Mini Z your guitar amp on its own will carry 100 people fine. Not even sure you'd need them for horns, although I have no experience playing with a horn section (though I want one for our band).

While you could buy a sub, try mixing with less inputs first and see how it goes with just 2 speakers on a stick.

Our band has 2 guitarists, bass, keys, drums and 3-4 vocalists; we usually just run vocals and keys through 2 QSC HPR122i's and manage the stage volume with the rest.

   Hello,

   I'd skip running the horns through the system too, they'll be plenty loud.   Keys and vocals through the system.

  And...since it doesn't seem to matter because of the OP's budget.... I was talking about a much better/bigger upgrade.   Find some used 650's

   Hammer
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Rowan Smales

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2011, 10:16:23 am »

Ok guys thanks everyone for your help. Ive got a lot of thinking to do. It seems like the K10s might be a good idea for the short term (particularly for gigs without the horns) and I can upgrade as circumstances allow and then use them as monitors.

I'm probably going to open a WHOLE new can of worms here but im surprised by the general consensus of not putting kit/horns through the mix.

As I mentioned Im no pro tech - I never used to put them through the desk, until a number of techies I worked with on separate occasions advised micc-ing at least kick/snare so the sound is always coming from one place - even on small gigs. It seemed to make sense so Ive done it ever since. I never play with particularly loud bands.

Thoughts...?
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Ned Ward

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2011, 11:19:57 am »

In all the gigs we've played in bars with 50-100 people, getting the kick and snare heard without being in the PA has never been an issue. Getting vocals heard usually is.

When you have a bigger venue, or have people running sound for you, then you can have the luxury of micing everything and mixing. If you're playing and mixing, the simpler it can be, the better.

I started the same way - running our bass player DI'd into the PA as well as his amp, D6 on kick, 906's on guitar amps. Quickly found that if we as a band balanced our overall levels, having just vocals and keyboard through the PA was a lot easier and sounded better. it also saved a lot of time on setup and stringing cable.

I like your idea of starting with the K10s and moving them to monitor duty as you upgrade; I may look at a pair for monitors as well.
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Bob Lee

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2011, 07:57:02 pm »

If you're choosing among the K8, K10, and K12 and will use them with a sub, then the main choice is what coverage angle you want. Wide, K8; narrower, K10, and narrowest, K12.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 08:25:40 pm »

In all the gigs we've played in bars with 50-100 people, getting the kick and snare heard without being in the PA has never been an issue. Getting vocals heard usually is.

When you have a bigger venue, or have people running sound for you, then you can have the luxury of micing everything and mixing. If you're playing and mixing, the simpler it can be, the better.

I started the same way - running our bass player DI'd into the PA as well as his amp, D6 on kick, 906's on guitar amps. Quickly found that if we as a band balanced our overall levels, having just vocals and keyboard through the PA was a lot easier and sounded better. it also saved a lot of time on setup and stringing cable.

I like your idea of starting with the K10s and moving them to monitor duty as you upgrade; I may look at a pair for monitors as well.

This is the voice of reason and the best reply, based on experience, that I have read. All to aften people try to over engineer the solution. Unfortunately over engineering is the result of being miss informed. You don't need 135db to play a small club catering to 100-200 people. You need a well engineered solution based on the components on hand. Drums are a prime example. In the 60's we could play a room for 500-1000 people with just our amplifiers, a good PA using 12" columns, and maybe, just maybe a mic or two for the drums. Styles and times change without a doubt, but for christ sake, try and get a mix on stage before you worry about mics for every instrument on it.
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Re: QSC K10s 'FOH' for small 8 piece band gigs
¬ę Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 08:25:40 pm ¬Ľ


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