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Author Topic: Versarray Processing.  (Read 6179 times)

Justin Myers

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Versarray Processing.
« on: April 26, 2011, 06:16:29 pm »

Hello

I'm possibly interested in buying some Peavey Versarray 112 MKII.  After much accumulated time researching and reading on the web over the last few months there are a few things I'm concerned with.

From what I have read, it is very strongley suggested that you use the Peavey VSX Processor with these speakers otherwise you will have problems. In particular it was suggested not to use Crown processing.
I own Itech HD 5000's and Itech 8000's and can't see why I would not be able to get just as good results as the VSX if not better using the factory settings. I understand their factory preset is based on using amps with the same gain. I actually use to own a VSX 48 and found it a real pain to use. I don't see why it would give superior results.

Another post was about Itech HD 5000's damaging the ribbon horn. It was said the amp was way too powerful and a much smaller amp needed to be used. I don't understand that comment. Why wouldn't the RMS and Peak Limiters of the Itech provided the appropriate voltages to the Ribbon horn?

I guess what I'm trying to find out from people already using Versarray is that do I need to use the VSX processing and a put small amp on the ribbon horn? If so, it would probably be a deal breaker for me.

Thanks

Justin
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John Livings

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2011, 06:38:57 pm »

I am sure you have already been to the Peavey Forums. (You Can Ask detailed Questions)

There is a white paper that explains this;

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/Voltage%20Gain.1.pdf

Regards,  John
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Justin Myers

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2011, 06:44:49 pm »

I am sure you have already been to the Peavey Forums. (You Can Ask detailed Questions)

There is a white paper that explains this;

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/Voltage%20Gain.1.pdf

Regards,  John

Yes, checked out Peavey forum but wanted more of a second opinion.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 06:50:07 pm »

Hello

I'm possibly interested in buying some Peavey Versarray 112 MKII.  After much accumulated time researching and reading on the web over the last few months there are a few things I'm concerned with.

From what I have read, it is very strongley suggested that you use the Peavey VSX Processor with these speakers otherwise you will have problems. In particular it was suggested not to use Crown processing.
I own Itech HD 5000's and Itech 8000's and can't see why I would not be able to get just as good results as the VSX if not better using the factory settings. I understand their factory preset is based on using amps with the same gain. I actually use to own a VSX 48 and found it a real pain to use. I don't see why it would give superior results.

Another post was about Itech HD 5000's damaging the ribbon horn. It was said the amp was way too powerful and a much smaller amp needed to be used. I don't understand that comment. Why wouldn't the RMS and Peak Limiters of the Itech provided the appropriate voltages to the Ribbon horn?

I guess what I'm trying to find out from people already using Versarray is that do I need to use the VSX processing and a put small amp on the ribbon horn? If so, it would probably be a deal breaker for me.

Thanks

Justin

Justin,
I'm not overly familiar with the Peavey product, but properly sizing the amplifiers for this cabinet is the same as it would be for any other product. If there are many reports of the ribbon driver being blown out then I suspect any number of things, however, the first thing which comes to mind is operator error, improper crossover settings, or an amp that's too large. I suspect this because regardless of stature amoung professionals, Peavey makes a decent product.
 
Now, a quick look at the specs states;
  There are many different approaches to power handling ratings. Peavey rates this loudspeaker system's power handling using the AES Standard 2-1984. Using audio band pink noise of the proper range for each driver, with peaks of four times the RMS level, and then running the signal through either the Peavey VSX 26 or Peavey Digitool MX speaker processor and crossover with the Versarray 112 pre-sets, this strenuous test signal assures the user that every portion of this system can withstand today's high technology music. This rating is contingent upon having a minimum of 3 dB of amplifier headroom available."
 
So, if you use nothing more than the time tested rule of thumb, and note that the ribbon driver is an 80 watt driver, a 160 - 200 watt amplifier for the ribbon driver will suffice. Any thing much larger than 200 watts per driver per cabinet is just asking for trouble. The same simple math should answer the questions concerning the 12" driver, and so on. Please feel free to do your own math and seek your own conclusions.
 
As for using Peaveys DSP / crossover I would be making calls to Peavey. If not Peavey than perhaps Don Boomer would chime in here. I think any DSP might work if the settings were what the cabinet expects to see. I also don't see a problem obtaining those settings from Peavey either. In the end the final decision is yours, but if it were me and I needed an array of this type and owned all Crown amplifier I might look to JBL first. But that's me, and yes the JBLs VRX is an array.
 
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Justin Myers

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 07:03:39 pm »

Thanks for reply Bob,

I understand what you mean. IT5000 can produce 2500Watt/Channel but the limiters can be set using voltages. Say for 80 Watt RMS/8 Ohm I'd be entering 25 volts. This will give me RMS Limiting at 25 volts and Peak limiting at 50 volts. I would hope this would provide the necessary protection to the driver. I want to keep my amps the same as Itech amps do not get any smaller.

VRX is definietly an option. I like what I have read about the sound of the Peaveys though and want to explore that option first.



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Ryan McLeod

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 10:09:34 pm »

Yes, checked out Peavey forum but wanted more of a second opinion.

FWIW-I owned a 12-box VR rig for about 3 years, always processed with Crown IT4000's, and it sounded absolutely stellar for my needs and I never had a single  issue. At the time I was a somewhat early adopter of the VR and Don Boomer was of great help with the initial setup... But if you take their recommended DSP settings, them in Harmon SA and your limiters properly, you should be very happy with the results.

I do miss the sound of that rig.....
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Bennett Prescott

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 11:07:31 pm »

The reason you need to use the VSX or DigiTool processors is because no other DSP will be the same. You also need to pay careful attention to using amplifiers with the gain they specify or the limiters will not function properly.
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Justin Myers

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2011, 06:19:41 pm »

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Looks like I would still get a good result without using the VSX it seems. I just can't expect the factory preset to be exactly the same for the same result. Marty at Peavey has been very helpful as well.
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Don Boomer

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2011, 08:09:39 pm »

From what I have read, it is very strongley suggested that you use the Peavey VSX Processor with these speakers otherwise you will have problems.

I suppose you could use any DSP ... but it would probably be difficult to dial in the exact settings.  As I recall the crossover uses Bessel filters and the "electrical" filter looks nothing like the resulting "acoustic" result.  The VSX units are inexpensive and you can download and drop in the presets so there's really nothing you have to do.  Once it's there you don't need to change anything so it shouldn't matter whether or not you think the UI is difficult to work with.
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Bennett Prescott

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2011, 08:26:29 pm »

Justin,

You can't expect it to be remotely the same. You will have to do a TF by hand and build new presets in your device of choice.

http://www.soundforums.net/live/threads/14-DSP-Tower-of-Babel?p=6766&viewfull=1#post6766

Article is forthcoming, probably the next issue of FOH magazine and then it will be posted on SFN as well.
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Justin Myers

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2011, 09:19:55 pm »

I suppose you could use any DSP ... but it would probably be difficult to dial in the exact settings.  As I recall the crossover uses Bessel filters and the "electrical" filter looks nothing like the resulting "acoustic" result.  The VSX units are inexpensive and you can download and drop in the presets so there's really nothing you have to do.  Once it's there you don't need to change anything so it shouldn't matter whether or not you think the UI is difficult to work with.

Yeah, I know what you mean after having a look at the factory presets for the Versarray. There are a lot of tweaks.
The Itechs do have Bessell filters. I also wouldn't mind seeing what the Brickwall FIR filters would be like at the mid/hi crossover point.
If I did get a VSX, I would be adding another 2 analog/digital conversions. Unless I got rid of the Itechs but I really like their limiters.
Justin,

You can't expect it to be remotely the same. You will have to do a TF by hand and build new presets in your device of choice.

http://www.soundforums.net/live/threads/14-DSP-Tower-of-Babel?p=6766&viewfull=1#post6766

Article is forthcoming, probably the next issue of FOH magazine and then it will be posted on SFN as well.

Cheers Bennett, will give it read.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2011, 11:12:32 pm »

Yeah, I know what you mean after having a look at the factory presets for the Versarray. There are a lot of tweaks.
The Itechs do have Bessell filters. I also wouldn't mind seeing what the Brickwall FIR filters would be like at the mid/hi crossover point.
If I did get a VSX, I would be adding another 2 analog/digital conversions. Unless I got rid of the Itechs but I really like their limiters.
Cheers Bennett, will give it read.

What you seem to be overlooking is that various DSPs render filters differently even when they have the same topology and slopes.... sometimes even among units from the same manufacturer.  That was Bennett's point - that you can't just plug in an 18db/oct Bessel filter in another device with any assurance that it will be the same as on the native processor the settings were developed on.

I wouldn't worry about another set of AD/DA conversions in this instance.

In general, what is lacking in the Versarry presets is adequate handling of array curvature, which is why Peavey recommends using very small angles, the flatter the array the better.  The granularity of processing and power needed to make it perform like bigger named small vertical arrays negates the savings of buying Peavey, IMNSHO.

I'm not a Peavey basher by any means, and when I first started looking at the VR I *really wanted* to like it.  For some applications it's still a very acceptable product but for the types of gigs we do and the venue geometry we have to cover it fell far short.

Marty McCann is one of the good guys and will assist you in every way he can.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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Justin Myers

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2011, 11:49:05 pm »

Hi Tim,

I see Bennetts point after reading his posts comparing DSPs. Was surprised in the findings, so much variation. Looking forward to the full article.

What do you mean it falls down in handling array curvature?

Justin
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2011, 12:40:04 am »

Hi Tim,

I see Bennetts point after reading his posts comparing DSPs. Was surprised in the findings, so much variation. Looking forward to the full article.

What do you mean it falls down in handling array curvature?

Justin
Well, that's not quite what I said.  In our case the processing wasn't the limitation; SPL and coverage requirements exceeded the VR112's capabilities.

As for processing, it's not a fatal flaw, as other arrays exhibit the same physics (but to lesser impact) - but to "do it right" will require more processing than a single VRX26 will provide (stereo rig presumed) and more amp channels, too.  It's to implement some array compensation.

Somewhere on Peavey's website *was* a document that detailed the amount of compensation (level & EQ) necessary as inter-box angles increased.  It was revealing, but Peavey had the honesty and thoroughness to post it... and I don't doubt that any system owner that followed it would have a more consistent sounding Versarray rig than the ones I've heard.  All vertical arrays benefit from compensation, but some require less (much less) than the VR.  Bob McCarthy discusses compensation in his book and Mark Ureda does the math in his AES paper on "J and Spiral Arrays" (find at jblpro.com).  The VR performs most consistently when it has a relatively flat (2 between boxes, max) hang at low trim for audiences on a single plane.  It will be louder up front than a "J" array but will be tonally more consistent than a Versarray hung in J without compensation.

The primary limitation of the Versarray is also its primary attraction: the ribbon HF.  This rig really shines on gigs that don't need extreme output, where the ribbon will be safe when crossed lower.  When your SPL needs go up, so does the recommended xover point.

If you're already committed to the VR112, have at it.  You know your market and clients (I hope) and this compact rig could well be a profit center for you.  There is a LABster in Mississippi with a decent-sized VR rig, perhaps he will contribute his experiences (my memory is that he considers it money well spent, so far).

Have fun, good sound.

Tim Mc

ps. When I said "was" about the compensation chart, it's because I can't find it on their site.  I'm probably looking in the wrong place... but I downloaded the pdf 3 or 4 years ago to a now-crashed drive.

pps.  The VR218 subs rock.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 12:54:24 am by Tim McCulloch »
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Re: Versarray Processing.
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2011, 12:40:04 am »


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