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[Benamin John Brunskill]

Our church has a very sick sound system (2x JBL VRX932 + 1x 918 sub per side)
The coverage is terrible, the amps aren't great, and no matter how much EQ we try, it has NEVER sounded good. We have had pro's look at it, and they agree, it's just a bad sounding system.  

We've been recommended the RCF NX 23A powered, array-able speakers, 3 per side, with 2x matching 2x15 subs per side.

We had a tour come through our venue yesterday, and so got to hear their system
(4 tops, 4 subs per side), and I got to spend some time with their FOH engineer as he tuned. Essentially, he only added fairly minimal EQ to 250-400Hz to deal with our room modes, and gently cut some highs from 2.5K up to about 6K, as he feels the speakers tend to be a bit bright. most of the mid range, highs and lows were lft completely flat. And I thought it sounded really good. Clean, clear, and excellent coverage in out room (seats 500)

I guess my question is, has anyone else used this system?
Do you know of any downsides to it?

thanks!

Ben

[Brad Weber]

Benamin John Brunskill wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 20:29

Our church has a very sick sound system (2x JBL VRX932 + 1x 918 sub per side) The coverage is terrible, the amps aren't great, and no matter how much EQ we try, it has NEVER sounded good. We have had pro's look at it, and they agree, it's just a bad sounding system.

It would help to know what the space is like, what your services are like, how and where the speakers are mounted, what the rest of the system is, who the pros are that looked at it, etc.  In general, the VRX is well received by many people and very popular.  There may be something in how it is implemented or other aspects of the system or it may simply be the wrong choice for your situation, but that can't be assessed based on the information provided.

Benamin John Brunskill wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 20:29

We've been recommended the RCF NX 23A powered, array-able speakers, 3 per side, with 2x matching 2x15 subs per side.

Again, not knowing nothing about the space or anything else. it's a bit difficult to comment.  However, some things do stand out.  One is is that you'd apparently have to add power for the arrays and subs, which could be an added expense.  Another is that 3 boxes per side is not much of a line array in general.  More specifically, since the NX L23-A and VRX932LA both have a niminal 100 degree horizontal pattern, one would have to assume any increase in coverage would be in the vertical aspect, but getting more vertical coverage with three NX L23-A boxes than with the existing two VRX932 system would seem to result in it not being much of a line array at all.

But what stands out most is that comparing the specifications for the NX L23-A and VRX932LA, it is not obvious just how much improvement would actually be achieved or how it would differ from maybe simply adding a third VRX932 to each side of the existing system and re-aiming those arrays, which would seem to likely be much less expensive.  The RCF subs might provide some increased output, but you did not mention that currently being a problem and again, it seems that the improvement with two new subs per side might be minimal compared to simply adding a second VRX918S to each side.  This sort of begs the question as to what is the basis for the recommended system and what actual improvement the RCF system would be expected to offer?

Benamin John Brunskill wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 20:29

Essentially, he only added fairly minimal EQ to 250-400Hz to deal with our room modes...

You can't 'deal with' room mode issues using equalization and even if you could, 250-400Hz is a bit high in frequency to be addressing room modes in a typical 500 person worship space.  I have no doubt there was a reason for the EQ or that it helped, I just seriously doubt that it was addressing room modes.

[Benamin John Brunskill]

Thanks for your input, Brad.

The VRX boxes are flown, approx. 6 meters high from memory. The Mid/Highs are powered by 2x QSC USA900 amps, each VRX getting a discrete amp channel.

The woofers are each powered by a bridged XTi 2k.

We have an Ashly Protea DSP for parametric EQ and crossover.

The room itself is not the big. 20 meters by 16 meters. About 7 meters high.
The actual seating area fills most of the room, approx. 14x14 meters.
There's very little acoustic treatment, so in this room it's important to keep sound off the walls, especially the back wall, which is glass, and real problem for slapback echo. As part of this upgrade, I'm pushing very hard to have the glass removed and an actual wall installed.

The church itself is a modern contemporary church, with roughly a 50/50 split between worship music and voice reproduction.

The two major problems with the current rig is:

A: Very, very poor vertical coverage. Of course, there is only 30 degrees in the two VRX boxes. This means that the front and rear of the room are not covered at all - the sound heard there is muddy and echoey, as of course it is all room reflections.

B: Poor tonality. It just plain sounds bad. Very, very hard in the high midrange. But I find if I EQ to get a smoother sound, it's very hard to get enough clarity in certain singers and a certain senior pastor with a very dark deep voice.

I personally think that a 'line' array in such a small room is over the top. I think the 100 degree coverage might be too wide as well, and to get the 60 vertical degrees that I think we need, we would need 4 or so boxes of NX or VRX. That would be a lot of SPL and a lot of amps to drive it, for a small room.

But this RCF system was recommended by a rental company that we have worked with a lot over the years. They are not a dealer, so there's no money in it for them.
I just thought I'd ask and see if anyone had used them.

Essentially, what we need out of a system is a wider vertical coverage, better sound quality, and more some sub bass. RE the low mid room mode is a reality, we always have to cut considerable amounts down there to stop serious mud building up.
This is the case for the VRX system and every hire system we've ever had in there.

I'm wanting to learn about this kind of stuff, so that I can make informed decisions, and spend church money wisely. But I'm not going it alone - I'm also looking for local professional who can really understand our needs a recommend some options.

I will also demo systems before buying - the last install was never demo'd, it was brought unheard. Not smart.

thanks\

Ben

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