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Author Topic: Speaker recommendation please!!  (Read 32175 times)

Jeff Johnson

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2010, 12:21:22 am »

Danny,

  I would recomend scrapping all the guitar center salesman's ideas and starting fresh. Although the jbls and the qscs are alright speakers, neither is really suited to this environment. Jbls are probably a bit too much and the qscs (can they even be flown?) will require two cable runs and are a bit too easy for anyone to tamper with. In most cases I would not recomend using powered speakers for an installed system.
 My thought would be to fly 3 yamaha c115v (15" tops, and they do make them with flyware) as a center cluster and power them with one chanel of a crown xti2000. Use the other channel to power a yamaha cw218v (2x 18" sub) sitting on the ground somewhere. The xti 2000 has dsp so you won't need to buy a crossover and you'll have some extra control over your system. Granted everything will be in mono but you'll come in well under $3500 and those yamahas sound (and look) really nice for what they cost. The company I work for bought 4 pairs a few years ago as something cheap to throw around and they have exceeded all of our expectations. Should be more than enough power, if it's too much you can downgrade to 3 c112v(12" tops), 1 cw118v (18" sub) and an xti 1000.  All of those cabinets can be painted white to blend a little better too.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2010, 07:23:39 am »

I believe that even basic issues such as mono versus stereo versus LCR or mono+stereo, much less the specific speaker and amplifier models, have to be decided based on the physical space and the intended use.  Right now we don't even know whether the 3,000 square foot floor area is 20' wide and 150' deep or 50' wide and 60' deep or 100' wide and 30' deep.  We also don't know what style of music, levels, instruments, etc. are involved.

To put it nicely, at least most GC employees work with people that are looking for lower cost portable systems and they rarely have much, if any, background or education in installed sound.  Along with issues such as having to consider code compliance and safety, addressing a system to be permanently installed in a venue with the goal of serving for many years takes a bit different approach than looking for something you can easily move and use in a variety of venues until you take the next step.

I find that properly deployed LCR or mono+stereo systems can be a good option in churches that straddle traditional speech oriented and contemporary music oriented goals, but the related cost and more complex operation is not always practical or justified.  However, since you mentioned that the space was under construction then any ideas such as flying a center powered speaker does bring up the issue of what infrastructure or provisions for the sound system have been incorporated in the rest of the construction.  Does the work being done include any conduit, power, hang points, acoustical treatment, etc. to support the sound system?  Are you at a point where running cables or adding a power receptacle could require tearing apart brand new walls?

And on a detail, you mentioned that the any flying would be handled by someone who works in the PA field.  They may be qualified but not just by working in sound reinforcement.  Because it is a potential safety issue, flying speakers should always be handled by someone with the proper rigging experience and knowledge as well as the appropriate liability insurance, etc. to protect the church.
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Brad Weber
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Gary Creely

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2010, 09:28:29 am »

Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 00:21

 Although the jbls and the qscs are alright speakers, neither is really suited to this environment. Jbls are probably a bit too much and the qscs (can they even be flown?) will require two cable runs and are a bit too easy for anyone to tamper with.


I am not sure that particular JBL would have been the best choice for any church install I have done.

As for the QSC is is a fine choice for an instal, (and if you are are going to be po-po on a speaker you should know the details about it- yes it can be flown)


Quote:

In most cases I would not recomend using powered speakers for an installed system.


You do know some of the most high end installation cabinets are powered right?  Meyer (the entire line) and JBL venue series to name a few. In most cases power speakers are a fine choice for an installation. There are some factors that may cause you not to go that route, but to say one should avoid powered speakers in most installation environments is just wrong.
 

Quote:

My thought would be to fly 3 yamaha c115v (15" tops, and they do make them with flyware) as a center cluster and power them with one chanel of a crown xti2000. Use the other channel to power a yamaha cw218v (2x 18" sub) sitting on the ground somewhere. The xti 2000 has dsp so you won't need to buy a crossover and you'll have some extra control over your system. Granted everything will be in mono but you'll come in well under $3500 and those yamahas sound (and look) really nice for what they cost. The company I work for bought 4 pairs a few years ago as something cheap to throw around and they have exceeded all of our expectations. Should be more than enough power, if it's too much you can downgrade to 3 c112v(12" tops), 1 cw118v (18" sub) and an xti 1000


A few thoughts here:

We don't know the dimensions of the room, so why would you suggest 3?

Why is going to a 12" a "downgrade"? That is a more appropriate speaker choice for most churches and often sounds better than a 15" box in a HOW application.

You questioned the QSCs ability to be flown (even though they are designed to be), and then suggested a speaker that can not be flown.


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Gary Creely
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Gary Creely

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2010, 09:55:54 am »

Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 07:23



And on a detail, you mentioned that the any flying would be handled by someone who works in the PA field.  They may be qualified but not just by working in sound reinforcement.  Because it is a potential safety issue, flying speakers should always be handled by someone with the proper rigging experience and knowledge as well as the appropriate liability insurance, etc. to protect the church.


As a side bar on budget. A typical installation company will charge about $600-1000 to instal a pair of speakers (assuming they sold them to you), add several hundred to that if you saved money by buying them online.

So lets add it up realistically:

QSC K12 (assume 2 will do the job)  $700 X2 - $1400
QSC KSub                                                                   $1050
Electrical/signal wire                                                $200
Driverack PX DSP                                                       $400
Profesional installation                                            $700

                                                     Total- $3750


This would be a lot of pop for that amount of money, however if the space requires more than 2 boxes then it would totally blow that budget.

That budget is making a lot of assumptions about the space, if there are other challenges it would go up from there.

Gary

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Gary Creely
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Dick Rees

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2010, 10:49:09 am »

Gary....

I'd be a little cautious in posting dollar amounts for folks.  Some areas have higher rates than others.  Plus the installation cost is the wild card.  There's no way to tell how many hours it will take to do the job.  Bidding a fixed cost for labor without a thorough on-site consultation is a quick way for the installer to "take a bath".

For most of the install work I've been involved in the time/labor is the make it or break it issue in the budget.

DR  
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Gary Creely

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2010, 11:51:04 am »

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 10:49

Gary....

I'd be a little cautious in posting dollar amounts for folks.  Some areas have higher rates than others.  Plus the installation cost is the wild card.  There's no way to tell how many hours it will take to do the job.  Bidding a fixed cost for labor without a thorough on-site consultation is a quick way for the installer to "take a bath".

For most of the install work I've been involved in the time/labor is the make it or break it issue in the budget.

DR  


The gear prices are US map prices and should be a safe bet in the US (trust me I considered that).

I gave a pretty wide range of cost, and was not giving a quote. With a 14' ceiling that is a reasonable range. This was to give a ball park not a quote, and that is a fair ball park.

Did you really think I was giving a quote for me to do that work on an online forum?

Quote:

For most of the install work I've been involved in the time/labor is the make it or break it issue in the budget.


My experience is installation in the context of entire project is give or take 10-15% of the overall cost.  10-15% can be make or break, but is certainly not the "big wild card".  

Granted on something this small installation can play a much larger role, and if you read my post I do mention it is a starting point and complications will add to the cost.
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Gary Creely
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Jeff Johnson

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2010, 12:20:43 pm »

Quote:

I am not sure that particular JBL would have been the best choice for any church install I have done.



I agree, I was just being gentle

Quote:

As for the QSC is is a fine choice for an instal, (and if you are are going to be po-po on a speaker you should know the details about it- yes it can be flown)



The real reason that I'm po-po on the the k - line of speakers is that I think they sound horrendous (Yes, I have worked with them multiple times). The reason that I don't like them for this install in particular is because this is meant to a simple, and cheap install. Running an extra cicuit for these to be plugged in to is neither simple or cheap.

Quote:

You do know some of the most high end installation cabinets are powered right? Meyer (the entire line) and JBL venue series to name a few. In most cases power speakers are a fine choice for an installation. There are some factors that may cause you not to go that route, but to say one should avoid powered speakers in most installation environments is just wrong.


My fault, I should have been more specific. I would not use powered speakers designed for djs and garage bands in an install(unless they are being used as monitors). And I think we can agree that most jbl/meyer powered would be overkill in this venue.

Quote:

We don't know the dimensions of the room, so why would you suggest 3?



In a properly flown center cluster, 3 cabinets can be aligned to cover almost any shape.

Quote:

Why is going to a 12" a "downgrade"? That is a more appropriate speaker choice for most churches and often sounds better than a 15" box in a HOW application.



I guess downgrade wasn't the word I was looking for; I simply meant a less powerful and less expensive system.

Quote:

You questioned the QSCs ability to be flown (even though they are designed to be), and then suggested a speaker that can not be flown.


I must have imagined buying these cabinets with flyware then.
Quote:

 if you are are going to be po-po on a speaker you should know the details about it- yes it can be flown


I'm not trying to be argumenative here, he asked for an inexpensive and easy solution and I gave it to him. Why are we all stuck on qsc gear? Do we not consider multiple options?
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Gary Creely

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2010, 01:32:29 pm »

Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 12:20

he asked for an inexpensive and easy solution and I gave it to him.


What you gave him is a solution that can not be flown, which was part of the requirement, and suggest the lack of flying ability as a detriment to the QSC. That made the particular solution you gave problematic.


Quote:

Why are we all stuck on qsc gear? Do we not consider multiple options?


I don't think we are stuck on it, but at this price point it is a good choice. There are others, like JBL PRX, or EONs, and so on. I am of the opinion that the QSC is one of the better choices, and I would take that over Yamaha club series all day long.

It is not that the QSC are the only choice here, just that QSC Ks are among the good choices.

As a side bar I think they sound great.
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Gary Creely
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2010, 01:49:43 pm »

Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 12:20

Quote:

We don't know the dimensions of the room, so why would you suggest 3?



In a properly flown center cluster, 3 cabinets can be aligned to cover almost any shape.

While placing overlap in aisles or being able to work around excessive coverage may provide some leeway, in general multiple boxes will only properly array to provide one specific pattern and that is if they array well at all.  We don't know what overall coverage or pattern is involved much less how many of a particular speaker might be appropriate in order to provide that coverage.

Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 12:20

Quote:

Why is going to a 12" a "downgrade"? That is a more appropriate speaker choice for most churches and often sounds better than a 15" box in a HOW application.



I guess downgrade wasn't the word I was looking for; I simply meant a less powerful and less expensive system.

Other than perhaps within a single product series or line you cannot really generalize the relative performance of a 12" versus 15" woofer box.  And what really matters is that the speaker works for the application, which again means understanding the application before determining what might be appropriate or a viable option.
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Brad Weber
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Jeff Johnson

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2010, 02:01:58 pm »

Again, they can be flown. Sorry, I forgot the A on the end before.

C115VA
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/312935-REG/Yamaha_C115 VA_C115VA_15_2_Way.html

C112VA
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/312934-REG/Yamaha_C112 VA_C112VA_12_2_Way.html

I also would have taken QSC powered over Yamaha Club series before I mixed on these. I was truly impressed and surprised. A lot of people (many of whom should know better) have mistaken these for EV X-Array/QRX/Pheonix after hearing them. They look pretty similar too once you pull the yamaha emblem off of the grill lol. But as someone who is used to working with EAW and EV gear, I can tell you there is nothing wrong with these speakers.

I can agree to disagree on the sound quality of the qsc gear. Maybe the ones I used were made on a friday afternoon/monday morning haha.

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2010, 02:01:58 pm »


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