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Author Topic: Speaker recommendation please!!  (Read 32046 times)

Jeff Johnson

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2010, 02:08:00 pm »

Quote:

While placing overlap in aisles or being able to work around excessive coverage may provide some leeway, in general multiple boxes will only properly array to provide one specific pattern and that is if they array well at all. We don't know what overall coverage or pattern is involved much less how many of a particular speaker might be appropriate in order to provide that coverage.


I agree, it's just that I find that three boxes normally ends up being the appropriate number. By no means am I saying that that is the best option for this space, it is simply a workable solution. We aren't talking a $100,000 install here, just a couple speakers in a small church.
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Dick Rees

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2010, 04:14:29 pm »

Danny Ryu wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 22:50

Live sound will be for church(about 200 seats = 3000sqft) and height is about 14ft.

I have come up with 2different speakers. Side(right and left) we are going to use JBL MRX525 for loud speaker and on the center, we are going to flying QSC K10 speaker for Pastor's speech speaker.

I was thinking that, would it be a good idea to put center speaker to use as speech? Is there any other speakers for center flying speakers that you guys recommend?

The church place is not that big, 3000sqft and 14ft height.

We are going to have all the instrument will be playing.
Any suggestion will be appericiate!



Danny....

Lots of discussion and the usual digressions.  Let's go back to square one if we may.

The separate speaker for the Pastor makes sense.  Whether it takes one or two to get the coverage you need is an open question.  For voice only you can use a small speaker.  Something with an 8" woofer and a nice HF driver would suffice.  A K10 or K12 would certainly work, but a smaller, less expensive box or boxes would work equally well for voice only.

As to the need for a sub......I'm old school and prefer for the bass to carry the room on its own.  It doesn't take very much bass in a room like that to be too much.  As long as the bassist is a cooperative person you'll be OK.

As long as you are planning on flying the voice speaker(s), I'd say find a reputable installer and ask them to come in and bid the job and see if they have any further recommendations once they've been on-site.

The only other issue I can think of is whether or not to make the voice-only speaker a powered or a passive speaker.  If passive, you only have to run speaker cable.  If powered, you need to supply AC and some way of sequencing the power up/down so that it comes on last and off first.


DR
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2010, 04:37:53 pm »

Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 14:08

I agree, it's just that I find that three boxes normally ends up being the appropriate number. By no means am I saying that that is the best option for this space, it is simply a workable solution. We aren't talking a $100,000 install here, just a couple speakers in a small church.

I am really not trying to be argumentative and it might be different with some speaker models but the Yamaha C115V/C115VA and C112V/C112VA are all nominal 90x40 patterns and at least in my experience a somewhere around 270x40 degree horizontal coverage is not usually appropriate or desired for most applications.  Poor intelligibility, insufficient gain before feedback and so on are not necessarily any more acceptable on smaller or lower budget projects than they are on big projects, especially if better results may be possible with a similar budget.

If you ran the three speakers with the center speaker on one channel and the outer pair on another and then employed amplitude and/or frequency shading, that could be interesting but also much more complex and costly.  Otherwise, I'm guessing that one or two boxes would be a more likely option but without knowing the room dimensions, etc. that is still just guessing.
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Brad Weber
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Gary Creely

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2010, 05:11:34 pm »

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 16:14

The separate speaker for the Pastor makes sense.  


Help me understand why this makes sense? Dannys got $3500 to get new speakers, so good advice is to suggest a solution that requires the room to be covered twice?


Quote:

As to the need for a sub......I'm old school and prefer for the bass to carry the room on its own.  It doesn't take very much bass in a room like that to be too much.  As long as the bassist is a cooperative person you'll be OK.


The bass Guitar is not the only instrument that would benefit from a sub: Keys, guitars, and kick drums would also be likely candidates.




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Gary Creely
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Dick Rees

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2010, 05:29:22 pm »

Gary Creely wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 17:11

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 16:14

The separate speaker for the Pastor makes sense.  


Help me understand why this makes sense? Dannys got $3500 to get new speakers, so good advice is to suggest a solution that requires the room to be covered twice?


Quote:

As to the need for a sub......I'm old school and prefer for the bass to carry the room on its own.  It doesn't take very much bass in a room like that to be too much.  As long as the bassist is a cooperative person you'll be OK.


The bass Guitar is not the only instrument that would benefit from a sub: Keys, guitars, and kick drums would also be likely candidates.



"I'd like to help you out. Which way'd you come in?"

....Groucho Marx  
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Danny Ryu

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2010, 11:21:09 pm »

Thanks for all the kind input!

Our church size is 44 x 57

and I am not only looking to buy a QSC K series speaker.
It is welcome to give me a different company.

We do have EON G2 but we are going to give it to the youth group. Seems like it has good power but for the speech wasn't too good.(before church has a lots of feedback)

People will start finish up the ceiling soon and I will see how the sound feedback goes. Not sure now....

someone mention about the instruments.
Bass will have own amp, but I would like to send it through the main speaker, and Drum will use full mic set, but only for rec. Room is not that big enough to use drum mic, maybe use kick and ambeience mic for drums. Keyboard, will definitely send to main speaker(keyboard does not have any own speaker) And also guitar sound send to main speaker(have own speaker but use that as monitor speaker)

I am kind worry about QSC K series speakers.
Would it be cover all the instrument?
I know that K12 will cover our chapel but how about instrument?
We are not just play keyboard and voal through speaker.

Some people keep mentioning about small church, and no need big loud speaker. But why can't small church play loud music and full instrument?

I assume that someone come up with the sub.

I never seen any church use sub speaker yet, but I am pretty sure that all the instrument will get benefit from the sub speakers.

Any other input is welcome!

Thanks for all the good information!
Hope our church will make good sound because of you guys!
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2010, 03:06:39 am »

Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 16 December 2010 04:21


Our church size is 44 x 57



I believe you mentioned 14' maximum height in an earlier post. This makes it a non-trivial project. Rather big wide room with a low ceiling. I don't think that a SWAG (Scientific Wild-Assed Guess) system will suffice.

One basic rule of thumb is that the actual distance from a speaker to the nearest and furthest audience members must be within a 2:1 range for speakers with normal uniform coverage. I think your ceiling is too low and the room is too big for speakers that are all in one line to cover. Draw a scaled picture of the side view for a person in the center front row and one in the back corner and see for yourself.

There are speakers that are designed to overcome this problem, but applying them properly takes some skill and experience that you may need to engage a professional audio system designer to obtain. I'm not talking some sales guy in a music store or a guy who has his own sound system down the street. I'm talking a professional audio consultant with a history of being able to handle somewhat tough situations like yours. This is not an easy room that you have here.

You didn't mention the the ceiling, wall and floor materials or the type of seating. The room's acoustics may be problematical to start with in which case no sound system will be acceptable all by itself.

If you want to teach yourself to be a sound system engineer on your own, or your church's budget that's fine, but it is probably not the best use of your money or God's time or money.

If you are going to proceed by yourself, you need to consider the horizontal coverage pattern of the speakers. You need to expand your scaled drawing to both the plan and side views, and include the coverage of the speakers from vendor spec sheets.

You may find that you will  need to use speakers that are dispersed, such as one row by the platform and another row  half way down the room to obtain reasonably uniform coverage. There will need to be a time delay to avoid creating a lot of false echoes.

You are well-advised to try to build a system that can eliminate the use of individual amplifiers by musicians or at least augment them, because musician's amplifiers will encounter coverage problems in a room with your configuration. They will be worse off than for the speakers because you won't be able to mount them 14' feet up!

The big red flag in the original proposal that you received was the phrase "Pastor's speech speaker". *all* of the speakers in a good sound system must be capable of doing a good job on speech.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2010, 08:20:57 am »

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

Our church size is 44 x 57

Is that 44' wide and 57' deep or 57' wide and 44' deep?  Is that the overall size or the size of the listener area?  Might it be something like an overall 57' deep space with a 10' deep stage and then 3' before the seating?  Are there any specifics like having a thrust stage with seating to the sides of the stage?

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

People will start finish up the ceiling soon and I will see how the sound feedback goes. Not sure now....

How do you plan to get cable from the stage to the mix position and from there to the amps or speakers?  Do you have conduit and raceways in place or are you going to have to tear open brand new walls and ceilings in order to run cables?  Is the sheetrock ceiling section over the stage where it would have to be torn open to hang any speakers?

Do you have power at the stage for all the instruments?  What about at the stage or ceiling for any powered speakers or does that alone eliminate that option?  How much power do you have at the mix position and would that also be where any amplifiers would be located?

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

Some people keep mentioning about small church, and no need big loud speaker. But why can't small church play loud music and full instrument?

No reason it can't, the issue is really just dealing with a physically smaller space.  This means not only differences in how loud the speakers may have to be to get the desired levels to the people furthest away but also things like how much the sound directly from the drums, amps, monitors, etc. on stage may affect the listeners.

Another aspect of this relates to the issues noted above, when you want to support a high energy, contemporary service then that can affect the space beyond just the speakers and amps.  In order to achieve the most successful result then along with having an appropriate audio system you need to make sure you have the necessary stage and tech space, accommodate all the related cabling, address the associated power, make sure you have appropriate provisions for the required speaker system and provide a proper acoustical environment.  These factors are just as important regardless of the physical size or number of members.  If you have not addressed these and the space is almost complete then that may drive some of the decisions for the sound system.

These are just a few examples of how this might be a factor.  If you don't have power at the ceiling or sufficient power at the stage then powered speakers are probably not an option.  If the ceiling where any speakers would be flown is sheetrock and that is already installed then flying speakers may be impractical or at least more difficult and expensive.  If you only have a single 20A power circuit at the mix position and that is where any amplifiers have to go then that may limit what you can do as far as amplification.  The point is that once a room is at the point yours apparently is you often end up having to respond to rather than integrate with the rest of the space.  I'm not saying that you can't potentially obtain a good result but some of the sound system issues you are addressing may be greatly driven by other factors.
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Brad Weber
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Gary Creely

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2010, 10:56:06 am »

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 17:29

Gary Creely wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 17:11

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 16:14

The separate speaker for the Pastor makes sense.  


Help me understand why this makes sense? Dannys got $3500 to get new speakers, so good advice is to suggest a solution that requires the room to be covered twice?


Quote:

As to the need for a sub......I'm old school and prefer for the bass to carry the room on its own.  It doesn't take very much bass in a room like that to be too much.  As long as the bassist is a cooperative person you'll be OK.


The bass Guitar is not the only instrument that would benefit from a sub: Keys, guitars, and kick drums would also be likely candidates.



"I'd like to help you out. Which way'd you come in?"

....Groucho Marx  


I assume that to mean it was a bad idea.
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Gary Creely
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Danny Ryu

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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2010, 08:47:38 pm »

Brad Weber wrote on Thu, 16 December 2010 08:20

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

Our church size is 44 x 57

Is that 44' wide and 57' deep or 57' wide and 44' deep?  Is that the overall size or the size of the listener area?  Might it be something like an overall 57' deep space with a 10' deep stage and then 3' before the seating?  Are there any specifics like having a thrust stage with seating to the sides of the stage?

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

People will start finish up the ceiling soon and I will see how the sound feedback goes. Not sure now....

How do you plan to get cable from the stage to the mix position and from there to the amps or speakers?  Do you have conduit and raceways in place or are you going to have to tear open brand new walls and ceilings in order to run cables?  Is the sheetrock ceiling section over the stage where it would have to be torn open to hang any speakers?

Do you have power at the stage for all the instruments?  What about at the stage or ceiling for any powered speakers or does that alone eliminate that option?  How much power do you have at the mix position and would that also be where any amplifiers would be located?

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

Some people keep mentioning about small church, and no need big loud speaker. But why can't small church play loud music and full instrument?

No reason it can't, the issue is really just dealing with a physically smaller space.  This means not only differences in how loud the speakers may have to be to get the desired levels to the people furthest away but also things like how much the sound directly from the drums, amps, monitors, etc. on stage may affect the listeners.

Another aspect of this relates to the issues noted above, when you want to support a high energy, contemporary service then that can affect the space beyond just the speakers and amps.  In order to achieve the most successful result then along with having an appropriate audio system you need to make sure you have the necessary stage and tech space, accommodate all the related cabling, address the associated power, make sure you have appropriate provisions for the required speaker system and provide a proper acoustical environment.  These factors are just as important regardless of the physical size or number of members.  If you have not addressed these and the space is almost complete then that may drive some of the decisions for the sound system.

These are just a few examples of how this might be a factor.  If you don't have power at the ceiling or sufficient power at the stage then powered speakers are probably not an option.  If the ceiling where any speakers would be flown is sheetrock and that is already installed then flying speakers may be impractical or at least more difficult and expensive.  If you only have a single 20A power circuit at the mix position and that is where any amplifiers have to go then that may limit what you can do as far as amplification.  The point is that once a room is at the point yours apparently is you often end up having to respond to rather than integrate with the rest of the space.  I'm not saying that you can't potentially obtain a good result but some of the sound system issues you are addressing may be greatly driven by other factors.



Thank you for the information.
As I mention the size of the chapel and I can tell you now about our chapel floor. 1/3 will be tile and rest of the 2/3 will be carpet. All around the side wall will be dry wall. They havne't finish up the floor yet. The ceiling is already done.

I ran the 2C microphone cable already on the ceiling.
I ran 2 cable on the center(as we mention about the center speaker) and 2 more cable on the each end side.
We also ran 16ch snake cable on the top of the ceiling to the floor already.

As you mentioned about the power outlet on the top of the ceiling have done. Incase, we might going to use active speaker. I asked to the electrician guy to make 3 different power outlet from the circuit breaker.(2for lightning system, 1 for center speaker)

Be honest with you, that I have no clue how many watts I do need for our music system. For the speech will not need 500watts or 1000watts for the speech, but as far as the music will need some more than what speech using.

Now I kind of get some idea but now sure yet.
Instead of flying 4 speakers, flying 2 * 12inch speaker on the center and add 2 sub.

I am pretty sure that, most of the instrument will get a lots of benefit from the sub.

Our budget still $3500 for the speaker with amp....

Thank you so much for all the help!
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Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2010, 08:47:38 pm »


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