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[Blake Ross]

Hi, I could use your help and experience in setting the delay for the mains and stage monitors for our Christmas production.
The church is 40' wide by 100' long, with the rear 20' being balcony built over the coat room and cry room area.
The stage is surrounded by a choir loft stage left, and an 8' high fire exit hallway, a pulpit and organ pit stage right. The band (drums, bass, guitar, 2 keyboards) is cramped into the 6' wide by 12' long area above the fire exit hall, stage right of the acting area, and 6' above the stage main area, (and 8' above the audience area.)
Equipment: 2 Flown Yorkville U15's above the edge of stage, 2 center clustered Yorkville USC1's (under the stage proscenium, thanks to all for their input on building the sub closet), 2 Wharfedale LiX 210m monitors folded back to the stage (replacement woofer arrives today , 2 Wharfedale LiX210m in the band loft, 2x10 inch delay speakers (EWI)in the balcony for voice reinforcement.
Processing is Behringer DCX 2496, DBX1231 on monitors, Xti 2000 for balcony delay, Sabine graphiQ for additional delay if needed on monitors.
The balcony delay is straight forward, I'm concerned about the mains and stage monitors. I'm considering: 1) delay the mains relative to the band so it sounds like the music is coming out of the corner (so more delay on the main and monitor furthest from the band), and delay the vocals the same: 2) delay the vocals equally on each speaker and the band as well; 3) set the delay to the band from the corner, vocals delayed the same amount on both mains/stage monitors .
Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated. After writing this I'm leaning to keeping it simple and delay each side equally , but I'm trying to learn more about sound and striving to improve the overall experience for our audience.
(Sorry for the long post)

[Taylor Phillips]

If you want the band to sound like they are coming from the corner, why not just use pan?  

[Blake Ross]

I had not considered panning any channels. The stage left monitor is 35 feet from the band and the delay is noticeable to the performers and the band. Setting the delay differently on the left and right channels relative to the distance from the band creates the 'band in the corner' point of origin in the mix. What I'm wondering is that if the vocals coming from center stage should match the bands 'origin', or should they be centered in the mix for the most natural listening experience for the audience (by delaying left and right channel equally). We start rehearsals tomorrow and I plan to experiment and was hoping someone on the forum had experience listening to both approaches and could comment.

[Brad Weber]

What capability do you have for applying delay?  Can you apply delay to specific crosspoints, for example one delay for the band going to a monitor and another separate delay for the vocals to that same monitor or are you limited to a single overall delay for a source or a speaker?

With the monitors, what is your goal?  Typically, you don't want to delay monitors where it potentially affects timing.  For example, if the choir performs with the band then you would typically want choir monitors that have no delay for the band sources so that they are able to be in time (and vice versa for the band monitoring the choir).

[Lee Buckalew]

Blake,
Keep in mind that panning only creates amplitude changes while delay creates time/phase changes.
It may be appropriate to do both in your mains speakers.  As far as delay goes you have to pick a location in the house that is average or ideal and delay for arrival at that point.  Then walk the room and see if it's too much delay anywhere, adjust accordingly.

As far as delay in the monitors goes.  Generally a bad idea.  If the distance is 35' now adding delay will only make things worse.  You will have to have monitors closer to the band.  They would be different monitors than the monitors for the stage.  Having to much delay (either added or due to physical distance) will create problems for the musicians.
The other thing that having monitors closer to the band does is makes the reflections from those monitors that are coming off of the side or back wall closer to being in time with the acoustic sound from the band rather than being 35' + 35'.  The monitors can also be run at a far lower level if they are closer to the band so the bleed from them will be at a much lower level.

Hope this helps,
His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

[Blake Ross]

Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 08:38

What capability do you have for applying delay?  Can you apply delay to specific crosspoints, for example one delay for the band going to a monitor and another separate delay for the vocals to that same monitor or are you limited to a single overall delay for a source or a speaker? With the monitors, what is your goal?  Typically, you don't want to delay monitors where it potentially affects timing.  For example, if the choir performs with the band then you would typically want choir monitors that have no delay for the band sources so that they are able to be in time (and vice versa for the band monitoring the choir).

Thanks Brad, I'm running mono, the DCX 2496 has 3 input/ 6 outputs and the snake box has parallel jacks on each of the 8 returns. I also have a graphi Q if I needed discrete delay somewhere else in the signal chain.

Also, to clarify the monitors deployment, there are 2 in the band loft basically at nearfield distance to the musicians, and 2 at floor level below the stage. The large chorus numbers have actors at floor level and at stage level and we need the room.

The responses in the thread have already helped me think through some of the questions I have. It's clear I need to separate the stage (singers) monitors from any delay so they are exactly in time with the band, and ensure the band area is receiving enough monitor volume so that the stage (singer) monitors are not 'echoing' back to them. I think I went of the rails when the band was complaining about the stage monitor wash coming up to the band loft when they were practising last week.

[Blake Ross]

Lee Buckalew wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 08:50

Blake, Keep in mind that panning only creates amplitude changes while delay creates time/phase changes. It may be appropriate to do both in your mains speakers.  As far as delay goes you have to pick a location in the house that is average or ideal and delay for arrival at that point.  Then walk the room and see if it's too much delay anywhere, adjust accordingly. As far as delay in the monitors goes.  Generally a bad idea.  If the distance is 35' now adding delay will only make things worse.  You will have to have monitors closer to the band.  They would be different monitors than the monitors for the stage.  Having to much delay (either added or due to physical distance) will create problems for the musicians. The other thing that having monitors closer to the band does is makes the reflections from those monitors that are coming off of the side or back wall closer to being in time with the acoustic sound from the band rather than being 35' + 35'.  The monitors can also be run at a far lower level if they are closer to the band so the bleed from them will be at a much lower level. Hope this helps, His, Lee Buckalew Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Thanks Lee, good things to consider. The band does have 2 monitors in the loft. The 35 feet was the distance from the band to the singers  monitor furthest from the band situated below the stage.
I will set the delay for the mains as you suggest equally left and right, and perhaps pan the band a bit to see which sounds more natural. It's an interesting venue having 3 dimensions to work with. Having the band elevated and in the rear corner of the stage area has had been thinking:).

One other thought. Our drummer is not miced so the singers at extreme stage left are getting a natural delay of his sound.
Should I be thinking about putting some mics on his kit to feed to their monitors? (We don't need the SPL from the drums in the mains, I'm just wondering about keeping the singers in time).

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