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Author Topic: Speaker recommendations  (Read 12286 times)

Jeff Broadhead

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Speaker recommendations
« on: October 15, 2010, 08:58:45 pm »

Looking for advice on speakers to replace our tired Bullfrog 12" speakers.  We are a small (average attendance around 100)  Southern Baptist Church.  Services include spoken word, Yamaha electric piano, bass player, choir with cd acompanyment, and solos with cd.  I have attached a layout of our sanctuary.  Basically the seating area is 30' wide x 51' deep with 16' ceilings. The walls and ceilings are drywall.  Floors are carpeted, pews are upholstered. Our budget for speakers is around $1000.  I was looking at basic JBL or Peavey Guitar Center speakers, but then found out about the Elecro-Voice EVI-12 or EVI-15.  It seems our sanctuary is the perfect size for one of these.  The only problem is we have a ceiling mounted projector that it would have to be mounted behind, leaving appr. 4-5 feet from the speaker to the front pew.  EV's application guide says it could be aimed downward 15 degrees and would make more of a square pattern and the front seating could be 4 feet away when mounted at 16' height.  Does this sound like a good option to you guys.  If we have to go with regular speakers, what size and pattern would you recommend?  We can do active or passive (we have passive now).  Thanks in advance.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2010, 02:07:53 am »

You may be able to get a different lens for the projector that would allow it to be moved closer to the screen.
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Chris Penny

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2010, 06:45:51 pm »

Our EVI-15 is placed directly above out front row (structural limitation). In terms of coverage the first 2-5 rows suffer a bit (although you can still hear it) and we have fill speakers for them but after that coverage is pretty good. With 4-5 feet you may find with a small angle down you may get good enough coverage depending on your program.

The most important thing is to get a contractor in to hang them if you go this way. They are a pretty heavy speaker and you want to ensure things are appropriately rigged. You may also need an structural engineer or equivalent to certify your hanging points to ensure they can handle the load.
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Chris Penny
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Caringbah Anglican Church
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Jeff Broadhead

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2010, 12:57:19 am »

In our situation, maybe the EVI-28 would be a better choice.  EV says if they are installed with a 10-15 degree down angle, they give the same coverage as the EVI-12 or 15, and would begin at 25% of the mounting height, which would give me my 4 feet.  Will the EVI-28 be enough for a 30x50 room? Some more options I am considering if I stick to a L/R configuration:

Yorkville     C2285
Electro-Voice SX100+E
  "      "   ZX4
  "      "   ZX190 paired with SB122 subs.
 JBL         MRX512M
Community     CPL42-94

I know most of these are above the budget I proposed, but that was just an estimate, I can probably squeeze a little more.
Thoughts please!
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Steven Fondren

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 03:50:08 am »

Don't know if this will help much as I'm not that technical...but we recently did the sound in our church.  We have a relatively small auditorium that might seat 200 VERY full.  We used 2 JBL AC28/95's.  The sound is great and they are fairly attractive as speakers go.  We got the White ones.  They pretty low profile but have fantastic sound.  We get plenty of high and low from them.  These would be a little outside your budget as I think they cost us about 15 for the pair.  However, they do have some smaller speakers that would probably work for your size building and cost less.  We went with a little over kill as we are planning to build a slightly larger auditorium soon.  Here's the link to the JBL AE series.
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/ProductFamily.aspx?FId =63&MId=2
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 09:10:34 am »

Chris Penny wrote on Sun, 17 October 2010 23:45

Our EVI-15 is placed directly above out front row (structural limitation). In terms of coverage the first 2-5 rows suffer a bit (although you can still hear it) and we have fill speakers for them but after that coverage is pretty good. With 4-5 feet you may find with a small angle down you may get good enough coverage depending on your program.



I don't worry too much about coverage for the first few rows because they get a pretty heavy dose of direct sound from the live acoustic sources.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 09:20:04 am »

Do you run the bass and piano through the sound system or do the stage amps provide sufficient sound for those?  Whether you have to support bass, keys and possibly kick drum in the future may affect the size and response required for the speaker.

How is your existing system configured and wired?  You currently have speakers to either side of the 'stage' and are looking at the possibility of a single center speaker.  While that may be a good choice for the speaker system, how well does it work with the rest of the existing system configuration and equipment?  And how practical is it to relocate the existing speaker cabling to the center location or to run new cabling?

How important is coverage of the 'overflow' seating areas?

What are the room finishes and how are the room acoustics?

Where are the microphones relative to the speaker locations?  The EVI speakers do not have much directionality at low frequencies and perhaps as high as 500Hz to 1,000Hz so you want to be sure you aren't creating a situation where gain before feedback could be an issue.

These are just some of the issues that should probably be considered in making a speaker selection for your application.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 10:18:50 am »

Arnold B. Krueger wrote on Wed, 17 November 2010 06:10

Chris Penny wrote on Sun, 17 October 2010 23:45

Our EVI-15 is placed directly above out front row (structural limitation). In terms of coverage the first 2-5 rows suffer a bit (although you can still hear it) and we have fill speakers for them but after that coverage is pretty good. With 4-5 feet you may find with a small angle down you may get good enough coverage depending on your program.



I don't worry too much about coverage for the first few rows because they get a pretty heavy dose of direct sound from the live acoustic sources.


A heavy dose from the worship team... but what about the pastor? Can they hear him?
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Jeff Broadhead

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2010, 09:23:04 pm »

Right now we are running the 2 FOH speakers in parallel on channel 1 of a Samson S700 amp and 2 monitors in parallel on channel 2.  We also have a couple of older AB International amps, can't remember the model, that we could use.  I think one is around 500 watts and the other 100 watts that can be used.  We do run the piano and bass through the mains, no plans for drums.  Wiring isn't a problem, we can run them in the attic.  I was planning on running new speaker wire anyway.  Overflow coverage is not a priority right now.  We can always add fill speakers later.  I think we are going to solve the problem with the projector, so if we do get one of the EVI's we can place it correctly.  I don't think feedback will be a problem, it will be almost directly over the podium and in front of the choir mikes.  The problem we have now is money, donations are not exactly pouring in.  Might even have to settle for a pair of JBL JRX115's on sale for $229 each.  I know they are pretty much frowned upon here, but they would have to be light years better than the Bullfrogs.
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Andrew Cupples

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 05:07:04 pm »

Hi guys,
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I'm interested in the EVI15 speakers as an option too, they seem to be ideal for our setup, which is pretty similar to Jeff's - the hall is slighty larger, but in the same proportions. They're hard to find in the UK, so speaking to people who use them is difficult.

At the moment we use two Behringer B1220PRO speakers and a pair of 15" JBL subs, driven by a Yamaha P3200 and Behringer EP2500 respectively. Music would be fairly contemporary, with lead and backing vocals, piano, keys, bass, accoustic and lead guitar going through the mains. Probably about 100 people on an average Sunday morning.

There are various issues such as waaay too much stage noise and an extremely reverberant hall, but plans are afoot to get more musicians on in ears and get some acoustic treatment. Spoken word is fine. With the current setup, I don't feel the coverage is particularly even, and getting an intelligible mix for worship is difficult. A point source just sounds so much more straightforward to me, rather than left and right main speakers. Our budget wouldn't stretch to line arrays.

The EVI15 seems to be ideal for keeping the sound on the congregation, and not bouncing around the walls. I have a friend with a PA hire company who has the necessary skills and cover to fly it. My concern is that it would be up to the job. I would probably use one or both of the subs at the back centre of the stage, crossed over appropriately. Also, they would need to be able to survive footballs (soccer balls) being kicked at them pretty hard, as it's a multipurpose hall. Are they resilient?

I understand it's a difficult question to tackle without actually being in the room and without knowing more info. I can supply further info, or start a new thread if appropriate.
Many thanks
Andrew
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Tom Young

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please read this post
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 06:05:23 pm »

Please start a new thread.

Thanks-
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
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Gary Creely

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 09:08:44 pm »

Jonathan Johnson wrote on Sun, 17 October 2010 02:07

You may be able to get a different lens for the projector that would allow it to be moved closer to the screen.



An additional speaker would be cheaper.  

Jeff,

Also you could do 2 JBL AC2264 (or something like them), that would be a little more than your budget, but give you a little more control and head room. Although the EV would technically cover the space you are asking a lot of a single 12". I would want two boxes in there to handle a full worship team.

A good budget speaker is also the Community Veris 12, which you could get below your budget.

In terms of active or passive it is personal preference. If implemented correctly either will do a nice job.

I would lean toward a 60X40 dispersion if you use 2. That may rule out a lot of the low end powered options because they tend to be wider coverage.

On a personal preference note I think those EVs are visually hideous.
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Gary Creely
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Mark Mattocks

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2010, 12:26:46 pm »

Jeff,

Arraying 2 60-degree speakers in your space makes no sense; there is no way that this will not add comb filtering and reflections and decrease intelligibility.  The coverage pattern of the EVI speaker works better in your room, but they will not completely cover the width of the seating area.  Although the ceiling height is 16', a seated listener's head is at about 4', giving you an effective height of 12'.  The speaker will still work with decent coverage and with the existing S700 amp providing 150-200 watts, will put out between 100 and 105 dB to the congregation.

The idea that more speakers is always better and louder is wrong on many levels.  Fewer, higher powered, more efficient, more directional speakers in the right place in the room will always sound better than just putting up more boxes.  
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2010, 02:20:46 pm »

Mark Mattocks wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 12:26

The idea that more speakers is always better and louder is wrong on many levels.  Fewer, higher powered, more efficient, more directional speakers in the right place in the room will always sound better than just putting up more boxes.

How about neither "always" being true?
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2010, 08:15:56 pm »

Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 14:20

Mark Mattocks wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 12:26

The idea that more speakers is always better and louder is wrong on many levels.  Fewer, higher powered, more efficient, more directional speakers in the right place in the room will always sound better than just putting up more boxes.

How about neither "always" being true?


True.

Sometimes more speakers is better-sometimes not. Given the choice-if a single loudspeaker will provide even coverage and enough SPL, then yes I would agree with less.  But if a single loudspeaker can't do the above-then more is better.

Sometimes higher power is good-but only if it doesn't sacrifice sensitivity.  Sometimes higher power capacity just means more distortion and brings on a whole new set of "problems".

Higher efficency is only good if it has enough capacity to achieve the target SPL.

More directional is only good if the directivity will cover the target area with an even coverage.  Sometimes a wider coverage loudspeaker will perform better than several more narrow coverage ones.

There are all kinds of different rooms that require all kinds of different solutions.

As you know you cannot generalize about what is best.  It is only best for a specific situation.

One size does not fit all. ALthough many believe that it does Sad
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Mark Mattocks

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2010, 10:12:03 pm »

You got me.

It is almost always wrong to say always.  And the use of single source versus multiple source systems is entirely situation-dependent - my previous statement on that matter was not well thought-out on my part.
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Gary Creely

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2010, 12:09:00 pm »

Mark Mattocks wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 12:26



The idea that more speakers is always better and louder is wrong on many levels.  Fewer, higher powered, more efficient, more directional speakers in the right place in the room will always sound better than just putting up more boxes.  



I am pretty sure nobody was suggesting that. Keep in mind there is a projector in the way of where one speaker would have been flown in this instance. As far as reflections and comb filtering there are lots of options to mitigate that.  

My contention is that with a full worship band a single passive 12" will quick get labored and have a difficult time keeping up even in a room of that size.
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Gary Creely
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker recommendations
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2010, 01:12:42 pm »

Gary Creely wrote on Tue, 14 December 2010 12:09

My contention is that with a full worship band a single passive 12" will quick get labored and have a difficult time keeping up even in a room of that size.

That may be true but it is not necessarily a factor of it being a single passive, 12" speaker but rather of the ability that speaker to support that application.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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