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Author Topic: sermons on cd are too quiet  (Read 27167 times)

Shad Hall

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2010, 05:10:15 pm »

okay, i've got some new feedback for you all to chew on.

this is really driving me crazy, b/c i thought i knew a bit about sound and now something simple as this comes up and i'm questioning everything i know about sound. hah

today's (aug.22) results:

ch.1: wired mic
mon @ 10:30
efx @ infinity (master efx muted)
line level input @ 1:30
gain @ 2:00

ch.8: wireless lapel
mon @ 10:00
efx @ infinity
line level input @ 1:30
gain @ 2:00

masters:
monitors @ 12:00
mains @ 9:30

tascam:
input level (dial) @ max
record level led's were peaking @ "-12" (about 50% of the meter) and running average "-20" (about 25%). meter is about -48 ~ 0.

i tested the recorded cd after finalizing and it was still really quiet over the church sound system and the mixer has 2x600wt amps. just tested it on my laptop and obviously the same issue.

i'm really lost here. there is one more session tomorrow night.

hey, thank you all for all of your continued input. Smile
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Dick Rees

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2010, 12:27:34 pm »

Shad...

The physical positioning (x o'clock) is meaningless.  The signal strength is what you need to ascertain.  Please go back to the linked info in Jordans post.  Does your console not have PFL/cue capability?

DR

Edit:

If the output level of the board is too quiet on the CD, yet adequate for the house system, turn down your power amps so you can run the board at a hotter level.  Your console output should be showing right around "0" on the meters.  Adjust your house amps accordingly.  You'll then have enough signal going out of the board to drive the recorder and yet not overpower the congregation with the house sound.  Just guessing that this may be your situation.

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Shad Hall

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2010, 03:48:18 pm »

Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 23 August 2010 09:27

Shad...

The physical positioning (x o'clock) is meaningless.  The signal strength is what you need to ascertain.  Please go back to the linked info in Jordans post.  Does your console not have PFL/cue capability?

DR

Edit:

If the output level of the board is too quiet on the CD, yet adequate for the house system, turn down your power amps so you can run the board at a hotter level.  Your console output should be showing right around "0" on the meters.  Adjust your house amps accordingly.  You'll then have enough signal going out of the board to drive the recorder and yet not overpower the congregation with the house sound.  Just guessing that this may be your situation.



so i printed off his post and took it to church yesterday and referenced his post in the manual and followed the steps, but that didn't seem to help.

by the way, there is no PFL as there is not even a headphone jack. ( pic of board )

also, the power amps are built into the powered mixer, so they (2x 600wt amps) are not adjustable. there is a monitor master volume knob and also one for the mains.

am i still missing something?

thanks again.
Very Happy
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Dick Rees

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2010, 04:20:31 pm »

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 23 August 2010 15:48

Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 23 August 2010 09:27

Shad...

The physical positioning (x o'clock) is meaningless.  The signal strength is what you need to ascertain.  Please go back to the linked info in Jordans post.  Does your console not have PFL/cue capability?

DR

Edit:

If the output level of the board is too quiet on the CD, yet adequate for the house system, turn down your power amps so you can run the board at a hotter level.  Your console output should be showing right around "0" on the meters.  Adjust your house amps accordingly.  You'll then have enough signal going out of the board to drive the recorder and yet not overpower the congregation with the house sound.  Just guessing that this may be your situation.



so i printed off his post and took it to church yesterday and referenced his post in the manual and followed the steps, but that didn't seem to help.

by the way, there is no PFL as there is not even a headphone jack. ( pic of board )

also, the power amps are built into the powered mixer, so they (2x 600wt amps) are not adjustable. there is a monitor master volume knob and also one for the mains.

am i still missing something?

thanks again.
Very Happy



Shad...

I apologize for skipping the details you provided in your OP.  All my suggestions have been based on using a "real" sound console rather than a powered head.  Some powered units I've used  
{Peavey for example} actually have some workable feature sets.  The Mackie, however, is sadly unsuited to your use.  There are certainly ways to make it work by patching things together, but by the time you've done all the purchasing and patching, you'd likely be better off just selling the one you have and getting a small, full featured mixing board, some EQ'ing and a power amp.

Sorry.

DR
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Shad Hall

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2010, 04:54:06 pm »

Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 23 August 2010 13:20

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 23 August 2010 15:48

Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 23 August 2010 09:27

Shad...

The physical positioning (x o'clock) is meaningless.  The signal strength is what you need to ascertain.  Please go back to the linked info in Jordans post.  Does your console not have PFL/cue capability?

DR

Edit:

If the output level of the board is too quiet on the CD, yet adequate for the house system, turn down your power amps so you can run the board at a hotter level.  Your console output should be showing right around "0" on the meters.  Adjust your house amps accordingly.  You'll then have enough signal going out of the board to drive the recorder and yet not overpower the congregation with the house sound.  Just guessing that this may be your situation.



so i printed off his post and took it to church yesterday and referenced his post in the manual and followed the steps, but that didn't seem to help.

by the way, there is no PFL as there is not even a headphone jack. ( pic of board )

also, the power amps are built into the powered mixer, so they (2x 600wt amps) are not adjustable. there is a monitor master volume knob and also one for the mains.

am i still missing something?

thanks again.
Very Happy



Shad...

I apologize for skipping the details you provided in your OP.  All my suggestions have been based on using a "real" sound console rather than a powered head.  Some powered units I've used  
{Peavey for example} actually have some workable feature sets.  The Mackie, however, is sadly unsuited to your use.  There are certainly ways to make it work by patching things together, but by the time you've done all the purchasing and patching, you'd likely be better off just selling the one you have and getting a small, full featured mixing board, some EQ'ing and a power amp.

Sorry.

DR

drat. but i understand. thank you and thank you to everyone for your patience with me. Smile

i remember vaguely that when we recorded in the past, we were able to watch the record meter on the tascam to dance consistently higher, so i'll keep messing with it and see if i can't figure something out. o.O maybe it all was a dream. lol

thanks again everybody.
Very Happy
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Jonathan Johnson

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2010, 01:06:06 am »

Shad,

Based on your previous posts, I'm understanding that you are using the "main" amp section of the Mackie 808s to power your FOH speakers, and the "monitor" section to power your stage monitors.

As others here have stated, you need to make sure that signal levels are properly set. Here's the general procedure:

  1. One each channel, turn the INPUT LEVEL SET and the VOLUME CH # controls all the way down.
  2. Turn the MAIN MASTER and MONITOR MASTER controls all the way down.
  3. Set the EFX  TO MON and EFX TO MAIN controls all the way down.
  4. At this point, there should be no sound going through the system.
  5. For the first channel, activate a sound source. This could be an instrument, a CD player, or your pastor on his microphone. The sound source should be playing at the volume it normally does during the worship service. (At this point, you won't be getting any sound out of the system -- that's OK. Inform your talent that this is expected.) [See note below]
  6. To quote the Mackie 808s manual: "To correctly adjust the INPUT LEVEL SET control, apply a signal to the channel and turn up the INPUT LEVEL SET control until the LED next to it just begins to blink." This LED is your "PFL" meter for that channel. I know, one LED makes for a pitiful meter, but it's all you've got to work with.
  7. Repeat the above two steps in turn for each input channel.
  8. Adjust the input channels' VOLUME CH # to "U".
  9. With the talent providing an active sound source, bring up the MAIN MASTER until the volume from the FOH speakers is about right, maybe just a little bit hot. It's OK if this control is barely cracked open.
  10. For each channel you want to appear in the monitor speakers, adjust the MON control to "U".
  11. Bring up the MONITOR MASTER until your talent gives you a signal that the volume is about right. Adjust the MON controls for the proper mix as needed in the monitor speakers. Remember, less is better in monitors (when talent wants "more me" they usually just want "less them").
  12. At this point, test your recording.
  13. Apply effects as needed.
  14. Adjust your mix as needed using the channel VOLUME controls. Do not mix with the INPUT LEVEL SET controls -- they are not durable enough for that kind of use. [See note below]

Hopefully, you'll be getting a hotter signal to your recorder via the TAPE OUT jacks. You'll also be feeding a hotter signal to the internal amplifier, that's why you shouldn't need to turn it up as much. That's OK.

The principle behind this procedure is that you want to take your gain early. The INPUT LEVEL SET controls the sound as it passes through the mic preamp. Subsequent circuitry adds noise to the signal; this noise is a constant. If your input signal is low, it might need to be amplified 30 dB for adequate volume. If it's high, it might only need to be amplified 3 dB. The inherent noise is also amplified by the same amount; by inputting a hotter signal you will need less amplification and in turn will be amplifying the noise less, resulting in a quieter system.

NOTE on step 5: On channels 7 and 8, the INPUT LEVEL SET only applies to the XLR jack. If you use the line in on either of these channels, you'll need to adjust the output of the instrument that's plugged in here until the light blinks.

NOTE on step 14: If an LED on a particular channel is glowing more often than not, you may experience clipping. If this is the case, turn down the INPUT LEVEL SET until it occasionally flickers on the peaks.

P.S. -- Please forgive me for any invalid assumptions I've made. This is a little bit like conducting intergalactic warfare using a text editor.
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Shad Hall

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2010, 02:12:08 am »

Jonathan Johnson wrote on Mon, 23 August 2010 22:06

Shad,

Based on your previous posts, I'm understanding that you are using the "main" amp section of the Mackie 808s to power your FOH speakers, and the "monitor" section to power your stage monitors.

As others here have stated, you need to make sure that signal levels are properly set. Here's the general procedure:

  1. One each channel, turn the INPUT LEVEL SET and the VOLUME CH # controls all the way down.
  2. Turn the MAIN MASTER and MONITOR MASTER controls all the way down.
  3. Set the EFX  TO MON and EFX TO MAIN controls all the way down.
  4. At this point, there should be no sound going through the system.
  5. For the first channel, activate a sound source. This could be an instrument, a CD player, or your pastor on his microphone. The sound source should be playing at the volume it normally does during the worship service. (At this point, you won't be getting any sound out of the system -- that's OK. Inform your talent that this is expected.) [See note below]
  6. To quote the Mackie 808s manual: "To correctly adjust the INPUT LEVEL SET control, apply a signal to the channel and turn up the INPUT LEVEL SET control until the LED next to it just begins to blink." This LED is your "PFL" meter for that channel. I know, one LED makes for a pitiful meter, but it's all you've got to work with.
  7. Repeat the above two steps in turn for each input channel.
  8. Adjust the input channels' VOLUME CH # to "U".
  9. With the talent providing an active sound source, bring up the MAIN MASTER until the volume from the FOH speakers is about right, maybe just a little bit hot. It's OK if this control is barely cracked open.
  10. For each channel you want to appear in the monitor speakers, adjust the MON control to "U".
  11. Bring up the MONITOR MASTER until your talent gives you a signal that the volume is about right. Adjust the MON controls for the proper mix as needed in the monitor speakers. Remember, less is better in monitors (when talent wants "more me" they usually just want "less them").
  12. At this point, test your recording.
  13. Apply effects as needed.
  14. Adjust your mix as needed using the channel VOLUME controls. Do not mix with the INPUT LEVEL SET controls -- they are not durable enough for that kind of use. [See note below]

Hopefully, you'll be getting a hotter signal to your recorder via the TAPE OUT jacks. You'll also be feeding a hotter signal to the internal amplifier, that's why you shouldn't need to turn it up as much. That's OK.

The principle behind this procedure is that you want to take your gain early. The INPUT LEVEL SET controls the sound as it passes through the mic preamp. Subsequent circuitry adds noise to the signal; this noise is a constant. If your input signal is low, it might need to be amplified 30 dB for adequate volume. If it's high, it might only need to be amplified 3 dB. The inherent noise is also amplified by the same amount; by inputting a hotter signal you will need less amplification and in turn will be amplifying the noise less, resulting in a quieter system.

NOTE on step 5: On channels 7 and 8, the INPUT LEVEL SET only applies to the XLR jack. If you use the line in on either of these channels, you'll need to adjust the output of the instrument that's plugged in here until the light blinks.

NOTE on step 14: If an LED on a particular channel is glowing more often than not, you may experience clipping. If this is the case, turn down the INPUT LEVEL SET until it occasionally flickers on the peaks.

P.S. -- Please forgive me for any invalid assumptions I've made. This is a little bit like conducting intergalactic warfare using a text editor.

saturday night, i picked up the manual (the section you referenced) and went through the steps, but not with a much better outcome. however, i will print off your very well articulated steps and follow them to the Nth degree this week to see what can be achieved. once that's accomplished, i will post an update.

thanks
Very Happy
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2010, 11:52:21 am »

man, i just typed a good reply and got logged out somehow! check the input terminals on the tascam with another source or mixer. the line level shifter should have solved this problem. if the terminals are good and you are getting low levels just with the mic inputs then ring those out and get as much GBF as possible. if you are getting low levels with everything then just start from scratch and get you you mic level peaking around -5/-10 and your instruments around 0/+5 or so.
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Matthias Heitzer

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2010, 10:46:12 am »

to check the inputs of the tascam, I'd just unplug the speakers from the powermixer and connect the recorder to the main line-outputs.
Then you can compare the level on the mixer's meters with the input levels  that arrive at the recorder and what effect it's volume knob realy has.



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Shad Hall

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2010, 12:54:31 am »

Jonathan Johnson wrote on Mon, 23 August 2010 22:06

Shad,

Based on your previous posts, I'm understanding that you are using the "main" amp section of the Mackie 808s to power your FOH speakers, and the "monitor" section to power your stage monitors.

As others here have stated, you need to make sure that signal levels are properly set. Here's the general procedure:

  1. One each channel, turn the INPUT LEVEL SET and the VOLUME CH # controls all the way down.
  2. Turn the MAIN MASTER and MONITOR MASTER controls all the way down.
  3. Set the EFX  TO MON and EFX TO MAIN controls all the way down.
  4. At this point, there should be no sound going through the system.
  5. For the first channel, activate a sound source. This could be an instrument, a CD player, or your pastor on his microphone. The sound source should be playing at the volume it normally does during the worship service. (At this point, you won't be getting any sound out of the system -- that's OK. Inform your talent that this is expected.) [See note below]
  6. To quote the Mackie 808s manual: "To correctly adjust the INPUT LEVEL SET control, apply a signal to the channel and turn up the INPUT LEVEL SET control until the LED next to it just begins to blink." This LED is your "PFL" meter for that channel. I know, one LED makes for a pitiful meter, but it's all you've got to work with.
  7. Repeat the above two steps in turn for each input channel.
  8. Adjust the input channels' VOLUME CH # to "U".
  9. With the talent providing an active sound source, bring up the MAIN MASTER until the volume from the FOH speakers is about right, maybe just a little bit hot. It's OK if this control is barely cracked open.
  10. For each channel you want to appear in the monitor speakers, adjust the MON control to "U".
  11. Bring up the MONITOR MASTER until your talent gives you a signal that the volume is about right. Adjust the MON controls for the proper mix as needed in the monitor speakers. Remember, less is better in monitors (when talent wants "more me" they usually just want "less them").
  12. At this point, test your recording.
  13. Apply effects as needed.
  14. Adjust your mix as needed using the channel VOLUME controls. Do not mix with the INPUT LEVEL SET controls -- they are not durable enough for that kind of use. [See note below]

Hopefully, you'll be getting a hotter signal to your recorder via the TAPE OUT jacks. You'll also be feeding a hotter signal to the internal amplifier, that's why you shouldn't need to turn it up as much. That's OK.

The principle behind this procedure is that you want to take your gain early. The INPUT LEVEL SET controls the sound as it passes through the mic preamp. Subsequent circuitry adds noise to the signal; this noise is a constant. If your input signal is low, it might need to be amplified 30 dB for adequate volume. If it's high, it might only need to be amplified 3 dB. The inherent noise is also amplified by the same amount; by inputting a hotter signal you will need less amplification and in turn will be amplifying the noise less, resulting in a quieter system.

NOTE on step 5: On channels 7 and 8, the INPUT LEVEL SET only applies to the XLR jack. If you use the line in on either of these channels, you'll need to adjust the output of the instrument that's plugged in here until the light blinks.

NOTE on step 14: If an LED on a particular channel is glowing more often than not, you may experience clipping. If this is the case, turn down the INPUT LEVEL SET until it occasionally flickers on the peaks.

P.S. -- Please forgive me for any invalid assumptions I've made. This is a little bit like conducting intergalactic warfare using a text editor.

okay, this is a very late update, but i wanted to say thank you and following the above steps, the cd recording levels are back to their normal parameters. i still had some recording issue for the lapel mic and when i remembered there was an "af" control on the back of the receiver, i adjusted the level there and all was then fine with that channel as well.

thanks again,
shad
Very Happy
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2010, 12:54:31 am »


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