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Author Topic: sermons on cd are too quiet  (Read 26921 times)

Mac Kerr

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2010, 01:12:13 pm »

Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 09 August 2010 12:48

Arnold B. Krueger wrote on Mon, 09 August 2010 06:34


Another solution is to simply manually advance the gain on the recorder just before the sermon and announcements start, and back it down before the music starts. You can put 2 marks on the front panel, one for music and one for spoken word.
Hi, Arnold.....

I quote the above in reference to the OP stating:

"input volume on tascam is maxed out."

This tells me that there is no way to "manually advance the gain on the recorder" as you recommend.  By simply showing the recorder a stronger signal you can now use the tecnique you recommend.  

In several church installs I've done I have used a Rane "Swiss Army" line distro to address the issue of needing different levels of the same feed for recording, crying room, fellowship hall, etc.   This is another (more expensive) fix.

Whatever works.  I just was stating the way that I do it when the house is being fed a signal at +4 and the tape outs are at -10.  The little level shifter box simply puts them both at the same level.

Best wishes.

DR


In addition to the devices Dick mentioned, there is the Drawmer DA6 which has 6 stereo DA outs, and the Aphex 120a which has 4 mono outs. Both have individual level control for each output, and are fully balance so they are capable of driving long lines. As DAs they provide some isolation between destinations as well.

Mac
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 05:16:02 pm »

[quote title=Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 09 August 2010 17:48

I quote the above in reference to the OP stating:

"input volume on tascam is maxed out."

This tells me that there is no way to "manually advance the gain on the recorder" as you recommend.  By simply showing the recorder a stronger signal you can now use the tecnique you recommend.  
[/quote]

If the output of a console is unable to properly drive a CD recorder set to max gain, then it is very likely that the gain structure of the system through the console is way too low.
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Dick Rees

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 07:26:11 pm »

Arnold B. Krueger wrote on Mon, 09 August 2010 17:16

Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 09 August 2010 17:48


I quote the above in reference to the OP stating:

"input volume on tascam is maxed out."

This tells me that there is no way to "manually advance the gain on the recorder" as you recommend.  By simply showing the recorder a stronger signal you can now use the tecnique you recommend.  


If the output of a console is unable to properly drive a CD recorder set to max gain, then it is very likely that the gain structure of the system through the console is way too low.




There will always be a 14v difference between the mains out and the tape outs no matter what the system gain structure.  I find it simplest to use the step-up transformer to rectify the problem if using the 2-track outs is the connection du jour.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2010, 11:02:34 pm »

I'm surprised no one has asked these questions yet:

  • Where do you run the channel volume knobs (what o'clock)?
  • Where do you run the main master volume knob?
  • Just to clarify, are you using the built-in amp for the main speakers, or an external amp for the main speakers? If external, how is it connected to the 808S?
  • Are you running stage monitors? If so, how are they hooked up?

The block diagram (page 33 of the manual) is your friend. Studying it reveals that the TAPE OUT is ahead of the MAIN MASTER control and main EQ. So if you are running your channel volume knobs significantly lower than "U" (12:00), that could explain the low signal level in the recording. The MAIN MASTER knob has no effect on the TAPE OUT.

If you are not using the MONITOR section of the 808S, you could connect the CD recorder to the MONITOR LINE OUT. Of course, that would limit it to a mono recording, but you likely would be able to boost the signal with the MONITOR LEVEL control and not have to get an external transformer/amplifier before the recorder. The MONITOR section, if not used with the built-in amp, is really just another name for pre-fader, pre-EQ AUX SEND 1.

If you are not using outboard processing (signal processor connected to L+R MIXER OUT and L+R POWER AMP IN), you may be able to connect the recorder to the L+R MIXER OUT connectors to get a hotter signal. This will preserve the stereo image.

If you are not using the on-board effects, you can also use the EFX channel controls and the EFX SEND jack as a virtual post-fader, post-EQ AUX SEND. Note that making this connection will disable the on-board effects.

It's also helpful to note that the 808S does not provide true balanced (floating) outputs. When a TRS (balanced) line is connected, the ring (low) will be in common with the shield. In some cases this could result in unwanted ground loop or RF noise, for example, if a long cable (balanced or unbalanced) is used to connect the mixer outs to a distant amp.

This is irrelevant to the discussion, but I'll post it for completeness: only the XLR mic inputs and the channel 1-6 1/4" line inputs are balanced. The 1/4" line inputs on channels 7 and 8 are unbalanced and do not pass through the preamp.
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 08:45:34 am »

Dick Rees wrote on Tue, 10 August 2010 00:26

Arnold B. Krueger wrote on Mon, 09 August 2010 17:16

Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 09 August 2010 17:48


I quote the above in reference to the OP stating:

"input volume on tascam is maxed out."

This tells me that there is no way to "manually advance the gain on the recorder" as you recommend.  By simply showing the recorder a stronger signal you can now use the tecnique you recommend.  


If the output of a console is unable to properly drive a CD recorder set to max gain, then it is very likely that the gain structure of the system through the console is way too low.




There will always be a 14v difference between the mains out and the tape outs no matter what the system gain structure.  I find it simplest to use the step-up transformer to rectify the problem if using the 2-track outs is the connection du jour.


Good practice is to connect the CD recorder to the console output that is appropriate for its input. That means connecting the balanced ioput of the recorder to a balanced output, or an upbalanced input of the recorder to an unbalanced output. The so-called recoder output of a console is usually unbalanced. The corresponding input of the CD recorder is generally looking for a "-10" signal, not a "+4" signal. The CD recorder usually has from 10 to 20 dB of addititional reserve gain if you crank the recording level full up.

If you put the numbers together, about the only way you can even get near to having too little level is to connect a recorder's  balanced input to an unbalanced output from the console.

If the console is part of a properly-structured system, and the digital recorder is typical then the levels should all work together as designed, and peak levels at the console output should be able to take the recorder to FS or beyond.

That's certainly been true every time I've put a proper sound system together, whether permanently installed or ad hoc. The recorder installation was plug and play.

If the gain structure is a bit off and levels at the outputs of the console are running low, then you either go back and fix the gain structure or apply some kind of band aid.



 
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Paul Wilson

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2010, 01:11:45 am »

use an aux out. You can adjust the volume with the auxiliary knob. simple and effective.

You want loud enough output from your mixer. The level of your input on your recorder is important but not as important as your output level from your source (mixer)
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Shad Hall

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2010, 05:19:57 pm »

Jonathan Johnson wrote on Mon, 09 August 2010 20:02

I'm surprised no one has asked these questions yet:

  • Where do you run the channel volume knobs (what o'clock)?
  • Where do you run the main master volume knob?
  • Just to clarify, are you using the built-in amp for the main speakers, or an external amp for the main speakers? If external, how is it connected to the 808S?
  • Are you running stage monitors? If so, how are they hooked up?

The block diagram (page 33 of the manual) is your friend. Studying it reveals that the TAPE OUT is ahead of the MAIN MASTER control and main EQ. So if you are running your channel volume knobs significantly lower than "U" (12:00), that could explain the low signal level in the recording. The MAIN MASTER knob has no effect on the TAPE OUT.

If you are not using the MONITOR section of the 808S, you could connect the CD recorder to the MONITOR LINE OUT. Of course, that would limit it to a mono recording, but you likely would be able to boost the signal with the MONITOR LEVEL control and not have to get an external transformer/amplifier before the recorder. The MONITOR section, if not used with the built-in amp, is really just another name for pre-fader, pre-EQ AUX SEND 1.

If you are not using outboard processing (signal processor connected to L+R MIXER OUT and L+R POWER AMP IN), you may be able to connect the recorder to the L+R MIXER OUT connectors to get a hotter signal. This will preserve the stereo image.

If you are not using the on-board effects, you can also use the EFX channel controls and the EFX SEND jack as a virtual post-fader, post-EQ AUX SEND. Note that making this connection will disable the on-board effects.

It's also helpful to note that the 808S does not provide true balanced (floating) outputs. When a TRS (balanced) line is connected, the ring (low) will be in common with the shield. In some cases this could result in unwanted ground loop or RF noise, for example, if a long cable (balanced or unbalanced) is used to connect the mixer outs to a distant amp.

This is irrelevant to the discussion, but I'll post it for completeness: only the XLR mic inputs and the channel 1-6 1/4" line inputs are balanced. The 1/4" line inputs on channels 7 and 8 are unbalanced and do not pass through the preamp.

sorry for taking so long to respond to this thread. just to let you know up front, i did go ahead and purchase EBTech's Line Level Shifter.

now, to answer your questions:

Jonathan Johnson wrote on Mon, 09 August 2010 20:02

I'm surprised no one has asked these questions yet:

  • Where do you run the channel volume knobs (what o'clock)?
  • Where do you run the main master volume knob?
  • Just to clarify, are you using the built-in amp for the main speakers, or an external amp for the main speakers? If external, how is it connected to the 808S?
  • Are you running stage monitors? If so, how are they hooked up?




  • ch.1 @ 1:00; ch.8 (lapel) @ 12:00
  • main master @ 11:00; monitor master @ 11:00
  • using the built-in amp for the main and monitor speakers (all passive)
  • 2 main passives speakers from main out's on mixer; 2 monitor passive speakers from monitor out's on mixer
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Shad Hall
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Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
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Shad Hall

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2010, 12:33:22 am »

okay, i have some new data for you to contemplate.

the line shifter arrived today in perfect time for a 4 day seminar that started tonite, which i just got back from night 1. i must be doing something wrong, b/c the recording levels were the same.

Q1. can you nuke a cd recorder by sending too loud of a master signal to the recorder?

this is how i hooked the line shifter up between the mixer and the cd recorder:

MIXER TAPE LINE OUT (L/R-RCA) => LINE LEVEL SHIFTER: Channel 1 -10dBV (1/4" TRS) => LINE LEVEL SHIFTER: Channel 1 +4dBu (1/4" TRS) => CD-RECORDER LINE IN 1 (L/R-RCA)

VOLUME LEVELS:
Ch.8 (wireless lapel) MONITOR @ 11:00; TRIM (the pot above the gain dial) @ 11:00; GAIN @ 2:00
MONITOR MASTER @ 11:00
MAINS MASTER: @ 11:00

The INPUT VOLUME on the Tascam cc-222 was @ max.
The recording signal meter on the Tascam was only -40 ~ -25; not much more than normal.

The head phone volume on the Tascam had to be maxed out to monitor the guest speaker through the headphones.

Thoughts?

and thank you thus far for all of your input everyone.

Very Happy

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Shad Hall
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Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2010, 02:43:57 am »

You need to apply more gain to the signal before it gets to the recorder.

Do you set each channel's "Input Level Set" according to Mackie's directions (see below)?  That's the first step to getting things where they need to be.  It's akin to PFL'ing the channel and using the meters to set the correct level, just simplified.

Are you using the FX built into the mixer?  If not, you might want to look into using that send for recording purposes.

I think that you'll find the signal is much stronger when the various gain stages it goes through are set properly.
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Shad Hall

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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2010, 06:34:55 pm »

Jordan Wolf wrote on Fri, 20 August 2010 23:43

You need to apply more gain to the signal before it gets to the recorder.

Do you set each channel's "Input Level Set" according to Mackie's directions (see below)?  That's the first step to getting things where they need to be.  It's akin to PFL'ing the channel and using the meters to set the correct level, just simplified.

Are you using the FX built into the mixer?  If not, you might want to look into using that send for recording purposes.

I think that you'll find the signal is much stronger when the various gain stages it goes through are set properly.


oh my! i can't believe that didn't dawn on me. i'm heading down there in a couple of hours and will address that.

thanks
Very Happy
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Shad Hall
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Re: sermons on cd are too quiet
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2010, 06:34:55 pm »


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