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Author Topic: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!  (Read 15373 times)

Jordon King

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2010, 05:00:54 pm »

Originally I had planned on setting up aviom system, but I figured we'ld just try and make use of the aux sends on the Studio live.  I was either going to go with 2 16.4.2's linked, but that would give me 6 aux sends.  With what I was planning on running through them I would be using them all.  So I think we may opt for the 24 channel model (10 aux's) and if we ever need more channels hook up another.  I know we won't have control at our musician's finger tips, but I was going to use one of the aux sends for direct communication with sound booth.

We're a smaller congregation.  We're adding on to our current facility (extending gym, adding classrooms, and more a/c).  We had included sound system upgrades in the cost of the loan.  This morning we received 14k in donations!  So hopefully we'll be making some purchases soon Smile.

Once again thanks for all the information!  This forum is awesome.  Actually the people that participate in this forum are awesome!

Anyone used the Presonus Studio Live's?  I've read a lot of reviews on them.  I haven't heard many bad things.

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Mike Galica

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 12:20:41 am »

Jordon King wrote on Sun, 11 July 2010 15:00

Anyone used the Presonus Studio Live's?  I've read a lot of reviews on them.  I haven't heard many bad things.


Got to use the 16 channel version a few weekends ago.  It wasn't awful to mix on, but it also convinced me I didn't want to buy one.  It took me forever to get halfway used to the thing, due in large part to its not having a screen.  And the lack of motorized faders was a big turnoff.  I couldn't tell anything on sound quality cause the system I was mixing through was right awful.  All-in-all, given the choice, I wouldn't want mix on one again.
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Mike Galica

Tim Padrick

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2010, 02:47:07 am »

Mike Galica wrote on Sun, 11 July 2010 23:20

Jordon King wrote on Sun, 11 July 2010 15:00

Anyone used the Presonus Studio Live's?  I've read a lot of reviews on them.  I haven't heard many bad things.


Got to use the 16 channel version a few weekends ago.  It wasn't awful to mix on, but it also convinced me I didn't want to buy one.  It took me forever to get halfway used to the thing, due in large part to its not having a screen.  And the lack of motorized faders was a big turnoff.  I couldn't tell anything on sound quality cause the system I was mixing through was right awful.  All-in-all, given the choice, I wouldn't want mix on one again.


It's no LS9, but it doesn't have near the price tag either.  I like mixing on it.  Unless you have scene changes during the action, the lack of flying faders is no big deal.

Jordon King

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2010, 11:43:59 am »

Should I even consider a Mackie TT-24?  I've seen that they've had some problems.  
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George S Dougherty

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2010, 03:55:56 am »

Jordon King wrote on Mon, 12 July 2010 09:43

Should I even consider a Mackie TT-24?  I've seen that they've had some problems.  

Having used all of the current options in the price range under discussion, the only thing I'd consider is a SAC system.  There are many things to like about the TT-24 and plenty not to like.  I'd take an LS9 before a TT-24 and SAC with just a simple control surface long before either.  The latest version of SAC out today includes support for 3M's latest multi-touch units allowing 10 finger control of the interface.  In the M7 price range I'd take that with a rack of remote controlled Aphex preamps over many other options as well.

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George S Dougherty

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2010, 01:08:18 am »

Demo of SAC on the new 3M control surface.

http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showpost.php?p=134545&am p;postcount=1
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Jordon King

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2010, 01:09:06 am »

George S Dougherty wrote on Tue, 13 July 2010 01:55

 The latest version of SAC out today includes support for 3M's latest multi-touch units allowing 10 finger control of the interface.  In the M7 price range I'd take that with a rack of remote controlled Aphex preamps over many other options as well.




I wasn't aware of SAC.  All I've got to say is, "WOW"!  I would love to run SAC, BUT unfortunately we have a lady in our church that runs the sound most of the time, and she would be freaking. out!  LOL Razz  She was already overwhelmed when I told her we're getting a new mixer, and she's not very computer savvy.  Thanks for the info though!  Very interesting!
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Brad Weber

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2010, 08:11:12 am »

Jordon King wrote on Wed, 14 July 2010 01:09

George S Dougherty wrote on Tue, 13 July 2010 01:55

 The latest version of SAC out today includes support for 3M's latest multi-touch units allowing 10 finger control of the interface.  In the M7 price range I'd take that with a rack of remote controlled Aphex preamps over many other options as well.




I wasn't aware of SAC.  All I've got to say is, "WOW"!  I would love to run SAC, BUT unfortunately we have a lady in our church that runs the sound most of the time, and she would be freaking. out!  LOL Razz  She was already overwhelmed when I told her we're getting a new mixer, and she's not very computer savvy.  Thanks for the info though!  Very interesting!


That is also my concern in many situations.  And it can go beyond just the operators to include the setup and maintenance, there are vendors who will provide and support packaged SAC systems and some will even sell those as a 'product' to contractors, but there is a cost for that.  Otherwise you end up with a number of pieces of gear that someone has to make work together and support, an investment and risk that often gets overlooked when comparing the 'costs' involved.

Speaking of costs, using the Aphex 1788A preamps and 3M multi-touch panel that George mentioned, along with providing a computer, rack, cables, output devices, etc., the equipment for a 32x16 input SAC system would apparently be around $20k-$24k.  That cost is already quite a bit more than an M7CL-32 and more than an iLive-T112/32.  Make it 48 inputs and the price goes up to probably $30k-$40k for the SAC system, way over the cost of an M7CL-48 and more than an iLive-T112/48 or Digidesign SC48.  And this is comparing just the equipment, it is not accounting for any setup, support, 'system warranty', etc.  If you wanted a turnkey, warrantied SAC system that would probably be possible, but at additional cost.

Now, you may not need all the inputs to have the very nice Aphex preamps with remote control, you may be fine running SAC with a mouse and keyboard and there may be other considerations that could factor in one way or the other in such a comparison.  The point is that one has to look at all the factors actually involved, and not just the ones some people want you to look at, in order to make a fair comparison.  And just as one cannot compare the cost of individual equipment items to the value of an installed, tested and warrantied system, one also cannot directly compare just the hardware cost of a SAC system to the total value of an integrated mixing system.  Both the actual cost and the value of some of the other related factors will vary greatly based on the specific application and that is why they really should be compared on an 'apples-to-apples, case by case' basis and not with broad generalizations.
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Brad Weber
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2010, 10:15:49 am »

The objections or cautions listed above are what attracted me to SAC.

I put in a 40 in 20 out system with 3 control surfaces for 3K  Now if I want to add a surface with better quality motorized fadders I just add it.  I don't buy a new board.  Perhaps next year there will be a better preamp that is in my budget,  OK  Lets add just 8 for now and see how well we like them.

The pastor wants a nice simple board down front for the summer program.  OK pastor does the school have any laptops they aren't using.  This is summer, how many do you want,  OK I will set one up with a main two mics, and the volume control for your video.  No problem.

In short, I now treat the control part of our sound system the way I always treated the rest of it.  Most of us if we have 4 good mics and 6 not so great will slowly add good mics and sell off or assign to other duties the old mics.  Now I can do the same with pre amps, control surfaces, screens. and the other parts of my "board"

BTW  I just downloaded the new version of software for my "board" and now it has new features.

Frank

George S Dougherty

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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2010, 11:33:27 am »

Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 14 July 2010 06:11

Jordon King wrote on Wed, 14 July 2010 01:09

George S Dougherty wrote on Tue, 13 July 2010 01:55

 The latest version of SAC out today includes support for 3M's latest multi-touch units allowing 10 finger control of the interface.  In the M7 price range I'd take that with a rack of remote controlled Aphex preamps over many other options as well.




I wasn't aware of SAC.  All I've got to say is, "WOW"!  I would love to run SAC, BUT unfortunately we have a lady in our church that runs the sound most of the time, and she would be freaking. out!  LOL Razz  She was already overwhelmed when I told her we're getting a new mixer, and she's not very computer savvy.  Thanks for the info though!  Very interesting!


That is also my concern in many situations.  And it can go beyond just the operators to include the setup and maintenance, there are vendors who will provide and support packaged SAC systems and some will even sell those as a 'product' to contractors, but there is a cost for that.  Otherwise you end up with a number of pieces of gear that someone has to make work together and support, an investment and risk that often gets overlooked when comparing the 'costs' involved.

Speaking of costs, using the Aphex 1788A preamps and 3M multi-touch panel that George mentioned, along with providing a computer, rack, cables, output devices, etc., the equipment for a 32x16 input SAC system would apparently be around $20k-$24k.  That cost is already quite a bit more than an M7CL-32 and more than an iLive-T112/32.  Make it 48 inputs and the price goes up to probably $30k-$40k for the SAC system, way over the cost of an M7CL-48 and more than an iLive-T112/48 or Digidesign SC48.  And this is comparing just the equipment, it is not accounting for any setup, support, 'system warranty', etc.  If you wanted a turnkey, warrantied SAC system that would probably be possible, but at additional cost.

Now, you may not need all the inputs to have the very nice Aphex preamps with remote control, you may be fine running SAC with a mouse and keyboard and there may be other considerations that could factor in one way or the other in such a comparison.  The point is that one has to look at all the factors actually involved, and not just the ones some people want you to look at, in order to make a fair comparison.  And just as one cannot compare the cost of individual equipment items to the value of an installed, tested and warrantied system, one also cannot directly compare just the hardware cost of a SAC system to the total value of an integrated mixing system.  Both the actual cost and the value of some of the other related factors will vary greatly based on the specific application and that is why they really should be compared on an 'apples-to-apples, case by case' basis and not with broad generalizations.


I think you're looking at the Aphex 1788A's.  Those are very expensive.  Using the 188's which drop the front panel bells and whistles along with the built-in limiting they're about $1200/8 channels.  I've priced out a system with redundant drives and power supplies, 48 channels of Aphex 188 inputs plus one or two of the Behringers for AV line inputs and system outputs and a 64 channel ADAT over CAT5 solution for under $15K.  Add a $1500 touch screen and you're still well within M7 and SC48 territory.  Wait a few years and that touch screen will probably be under $1000 and may come in 24-30" sizes at the same price point.

In terms of sound quality and feature set, The M7 falls way short and the SC48 is still a bit feature limited though you do have the option to run a few nice ProTools plugins not supported in SAC.  There's plenty you can run in SAC though.

Jordan, if your older volunteer is the only sound person then you're definitely in a tight spot.  Sounds to me like some training is in order anyway.  

One nice thing about digital boards, I think already mentioned, is the ability to have a basic "reset" capability for the untrained and to have the feature set limited to mainly pushing faders up and down with the possible addition of utilizing scenes.  

The scenes in SAC are much better than most, with a short textual list of named scenes to control major board states.  I have "Worship", "Sermon", "Announcements", and a handful of in-between states for transitions to add things without killing other channels.  If you can open a program on a computer, you can fire off a scene.  If you can operate a simple board, I can show you in a few minutes how to use the motorized control surface and adjust levels.  That's about all any of our volunteers need to know about running the board.
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Re: Much needed upgrade. Please give advice!
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2010, 11:33:27 am »


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