Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jordon King]

Grettings everyone!

I've visited these forums in the past just browsing, but finally registered.  You guys seem very knowledgable.  I'ld like to see if anyone would offer some advice on a few upcoming purchases for our sanctuary.

I've been running sound at my church for about 5 years now.  2.5 years ago we were able to purchase some land and build a new building.  The existing equipment from previous sanctuary went into the new building.  The equipment is probably 10+ years old.  Our musicians have outgrown the current setup so it's time for an upgrade!

Here's a few links to photos of the sanctuary, and a quick drawing on dimensions.  

http://www.victorylifetabernacle.com/photos/pa_project/small _005.jpg
http://www.victorylifetabernacle.com/photos/pa_project/small _004.jpg
http://www.victorylifetabernacle.com/photos/pa_project/sanct uary_dimensions.jpg

My main reasons for this post are pretty much speaker placement, and if you guys think that the FOH setup I was planning on purchasing will be sufficient.  Our current FOH setup sounds... OK.  I know it could be better though.  We've got some dead spots along the sides.  Lacking in crispness.  We were originally wanting to mount the 2 speakers in the center kind of angled out, but I was thinking mounted on the 2 walls to the left and right of the stage angled in would sound better.  I'm open to all suggestions.

Priorities on the sound upgrade:

1.  New FOH speakers (better overall sound and coverage area)
   
   Existing speakers are Peavey SP 2G's (Link:  http://www.peavey.com/media/pdf/manuals/80300313.pdf) pushed by Yamaha P7000S (Link:      http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/products/power_amps/p7000s/ind ex.html)
   
   Speakers I'm looking at are JBL AE Compact AC28/26 (Link: http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3 &docid=1083).  I was going to push    each one with a Yamaha P3500S (Link:   http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSerie sDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D15252%252526CTID%   25253D227600,00.html)   

   Was also going to purchase 1 JBL SRX718S Compact PA Subwoofer (Link:   http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3 &docid=823) and push it    with our existing Yamaha P7000S.  Also considering purchasing DBX Driverack Plus.

   I've compared specs and I think this would be a pretty good upgrade in FOH.  What do you guys think?  Any recommendations?

2.  Better recording solution (I've been uploading recordings to our website)
   
   I've been recording basically a FOH house mix.  I'm wanting to have a multi-track live recording.  Something I can just hit record and mix later  I've been looking   at the Presonus Studiolive 24.4.1, but considering linking 2 of the 16.4.1's together.  Once again open to suggestions.  

3.  Reduce stage volume (Therefore being able to reduce FOH)

   Getting better drum shield and acoustical treatments to try and help with drum levels.  Going to also get rid of guitar amp, and bass amp and go in ear.  I've been    using a Boss GT-10 into the board.  Going to try and get bass player a the GT-10B.  Basically only 2 monitors on stage for Vocals.  Was going to go with Shure    PSM400's for in ear monitoring.  I would like to step it up to the 700's depending where we are in budget, or if I can find good deal.

4.  Better mixes for musicians (In ear systems)

   See above.

5.  More channels /w other miscellaneous upgrades to equipment

   We've got an old Mackie 16 channel board.  I'm really leaning toward two of the 16.4.1 Studiolive's linked.  The boards seem really flexible.  All the different routing    options and simplicity are extremely appealing.  With what I've got in the estimate I'm at about 14k that includes new mic's, cables, & other misc.

Sorry for the long post.  
Thanks in advance!
Jordon King
   

[Brad Weber]

There are numerous potential tradeoffs and decisions involved.  With a wide room, putting the speakers out at the corners is going to result in a very wide stage 'image'.  And if the system does a decent job of stereo, where both channels cover the seating well (which may be difficult to achieve with some seated so close and others so far away), then you are going to have all sorts of combfiltering with mono sources.  On the other hand, a center array might work well but would require flying the speakers and getting the cabling to the new locations.  The ceiling is also a bit low so aesthetics might be a factor.

Where do you plan on putting the single sub?  I don't envision it going in the center and if it is to one side you may have some real differences in sub level and thus overall system response throughout the seating.  You might also have to consider the resulting levels on stage.

Your existing Peavey speakers are rated at 100dB/1W/1m, 300W/600W/1200W and 8 Ohms.  The Yamaha P7000 driving them is rated at 700W/channel into 8 Ohms.  The JBL AC28/26 are rated at 94dB/1W/1m, 375W/750W/1500W and 8 Ohms while the P3500 is rated at 350W/channel into 8 Ohms.  So you would be going from a theoretical 128.5dB at 1m to 119.5dB @ 1m.  Meanwhile the single sub is rated 300W/1600W/3200W, 95dB/1W/1m and 8 Ohms while the repurposed P7000 would be 1900W into 8 Ohms, thus 128dB.  Maybe the level is not an issue for you and thus thus is not a factor, but with the planned changes you would theoretically be losing about 9dB of output, or headroom, in the system.  You might actually be better to leave the P7000 on the mains (122.5dB) and use the P3500 run bridge mono for the sub (124.5dB).

Don't limit addressing the acoustics to the stage.  It looks like you have all reflective surfaces for the rear and side walls.  Treating those may help while losing some of the acoustical tile may keep the room from being too dead at high frequencies and help with congregational interaction.

In planning for some of the other upgrades, such as the additional amp and greater number of inputs, think about how you are going to deal with infrastructure issues such as power and cabling paths.  Better to verify what you have an d what might be needed now than to wait until you find out that what seemed like a simple change turns out to be much more involved.

[Jordon King]

Thanks for the information!  I can see what you're saying about the wide stage image and the combfiltering.  I could probably fly them, but I'm not looking forward to it if we decide to.  What if I was to maybe mount them on walls where it 45 degrees into the stage?  That would be a little wider than where I am right now.  The sub I was actually considering mounting into center of stage.  It would be the easiest, and wouldn't be biased to one side.  

I don't know if you understood me correctly on how I was going to push the speakers.  Or maybe I'm looking at it incorrectly.  I was intending to push 2 JBL AC28/26's with 2 Yamaha P3500's in bridged mono to each speaker.  Isn't that 900 watts to each cabinet at 8 Ohms.  I was then going to push the Sub with the existing P7000 bridged.  At 8 ohms that's 1900watts.  And as far as headroom I'm probably at about 80% right now on P7000 pushing the 2 SP 2G's.  The way I was figuring this would be a step up in output. Am I looking at this wrong?  

I was definitely going to do some acoustical treatment on the walls of the stage.  And I didn't even consider the tiles soaking up our highs in there.  Do you any recommendations as to what to drop in... in place of the tiles that is?

I know we're in for some work.  We have a lot of workers in our church so we're very blessed.  Once again thanks sooooo much for the information.  I want this to sound as good as we can make it!

Jordon King

[Brad Weber]

Jordon King wrote on Fri, 09 July 2010 13:11

I don't know if you understood me correctly on how I was going to push the speakers.  Or maybe I'm looking at it incorrectly.  I was intending to push 2 JBL AC28/26's with 2 Yamaha P3500's in bridged mono to each speaker.  Isn't that 900 watts to each cabinet at 8 Ohms.  I was then going to push the Sub with the existing P7000 bridged.  At 8 ohms that's 1900watts.  And as far as headroom I'm probably at about 80% right now on P7000 pushing the 2 SP 2G's.  The way I was figuring this would be a step up in output. Am I looking at this wrong?

You're right, I did not understand that you planned on a P3500 per JBL main, however the one element missing is the speaker sensitivity  The existing Peavey's are rated at 100dB/1W/1m and the JBLs at 94dB/1W/1m, so assuming these to be accurate (a big assumption) and the fact that both are 8 Ohm rated, the JBLs would require four times as much power in order to provide the same output level.  You apparently plan on going from the current 700W per speaker to 900W per speaker or from a maximum output with the current setup of 128.5dB to 123.5dB.

By the time you account for vagaries in the detailed specs, adding subs, etc. the actual difference would likely be less but you would most likely be losing something in output or headroom in the system.  This may not be an issue, I just thought it should be noted.

I'm a little confused regarding the front 'wall' as your floor plan sketch shows flat walls to either side of the stage while the photo seems to show angled walls, but is not a wide enough shot to show the whole wall.

[Jordon King]

Brad Weber wrote on Fri, 09 July 2010 13:53

By the time you account for vagaries in the detailed specs, adding subs, etc. the actual difference would likely be less but you would most likely be losing something in output or headroom in the system.  This may not be an issue, I just thought it should be noted. I'm a little confused regarding the front 'wall' as your floor plan sketch shows flat walls to either side of the stage while the photo seems to show angled walls, but is not a wide enough shot to show the whole wall.

Well as of right now headroom hasn't been an issue, but I am going to be losing some stage volume because our musicians are switching to in ear monitors.  I will go ahead and step up the 2 amps for the JBL's just to be on the safe side.  You think sub would sound best in the middle?

Yeah my cutaway drawing could have used a few more lines . Basically where it slopes up to 14 ft ceiling, about 5 foot from the wall it kicks into the stage 45 degrees and then kicks the other 45 degrees later.  You can see it in the overhead view.  

When you say pull some of the acoustical tiles.  Would you just put white metal mesh to replace them?

[Brad Weber]

Jordon King wrote on Fri, 09 July 2010 17:38

When you say pull some of the acoustical tiles.  Would you just put white metal mesh to replace them?

Preferably something like one of these, http://www.acousticsfirst.com/diffusers-diffusors.htm, or something similar from any other manufacturer.  The diffusion helps with avoiding flutter between the floor and ceiling and helps the congregation to hear one another.  A not quite as good option acoustically, but cheaper and perhaps more aesthetically pleasing, would be to simply replace some acoustical tiles with gypsum board or plywood panels.  It would take a more detailed analysis, and ideally acoustical measurements of the existing space, to get specific.

[Jordon King]

Thanks for all the information Brad!  You've been a tremendous help.  I'll let you know how it turns out.  We should probably start purchasing equipment within the next month (hopefully).
God bless!
Jordon King

[Frank DeWitt]

3 and 4 are very closely related.  If you get a good IEM system with individual mixers for each talent your stage volume including the drums will come down.

This was my experience.  I thought we would need to teach them to bring the stage volume down once they got the IEMs  We handed them the earphones, turned it on, and all volume went down including drums, guitars, and piano. they didn't need to play loud to hear themselves clearly.

I would make IEMs with individual mixers a priority. There are many ways to get the personal mixers, A new board with more channels, and recording of each ch for mix later. The most cost effective way I know is SAC.  http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com/  

It is different, and there are drawbacks, but you can build a 40 ch in, 40 ch out system for $3000 (That is one ch for each person on your worship team.  Each person gets there own mixer for $100 (used dumb laptop) and has there own mix.

Frank  

[Brad Weber]

Frank DeWitt wrote on Sat, 10 July 2010 23:02

Each person gets there own mixer for $100 (used dumb laptop) and has there own mix.

Since the laptop is just for control you also require an audio output from main system, a headphone amp, headphones, a network router or switcher (and/or WAP) and all the related cabling for each person.  That's realistically probably a bit more total cost than $100 per person.   You also need musicians comfortable with operating the laptops and the SAC remote software along with someone maintaining all the laptops and any related network.  For some people this is probably a quite practical and cost effective solution, but just like any other potential solution, it needs to be looked at with a realistic perspective for each application.

[Frank DeWitt]

Brad Weber wrote on Sun, 11 July 2010 12:48

Frank DeWitt wrote on Sat, 10 July 2010 23:02 Each person gets there own mixer for $100 (used dumb laptop) and has there own mix. Since the laptop is just for control you also require an audio output from main system, a headphone amp, headphones, a network router or switcher (and/or WAP) and all the related cabling for each person.  That's realistically probably a bit more total cost than $100 per person.   You also need musicians comfortable with operating the laptops and the SAC remote software along with someone maintaining all the laptops and any related network.  For some people this is probably a quite practical and cost effective solution, but just like any other potential solution, it needs to be looked at with a realistic perspective for each application.

Complete agreement. SAC is not magic. All the things you list are needed.  They are easy, but needed.  The outputs are there and the software to run them is there.  You do need a headphone amp.  I use a 6 ch rack amp running mono for 12 ch  The setup, and maintenance of laptops and people willing to use them are all real issues.

Your point is good and strong so I will repeat it.  For some people this is probably a quite practical and cost effective solution, but just like any other potential solution, it needs to be looked at with a realistic perspective for each application.

Amen brother

Frank

[ProSoundWeb Community]