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Author Topic: how about some FOH console recommendations  (Read 6110 times)

Chris Harwood

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how about some FOH console recommendations
« on: July 03, 2010, 08:44:42 pm »

in the $5k - $7.5 range?
Used could be OK too.   And/or would used potentially be preferred in that price range?   or...move up to $10K?

Contemporary P & W...  thinking around 40 channels or so. Running avioms on the platform.  Medium sized church (500 seats)..

Probably stereo w/ center channel?  ... overall TOTAL system budget...$75K.. maybe?

Is my head on my shoulders with this thinking?

(add on info)

-New install
-volunteers running things for most part
-analog board probably preferred, (more channels) versus LS9 or similar

yeah... realize need twice the $75K, but that ought to get something rolling pretty decent as a start... right?

Speakers, cabling, 110 pwr, etc  first?  

We're talking Paducah KY, too.

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Christy L Manoppo (okky)

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Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2010, 09:24:10 pm »

on that budget, 5-7.5k would be in the Allen & Heath market. Probably a GL2800 will do good. And spend the money left on good compressors or dynamic processors of your choice.
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Christy L Manoppo
Coordinator for AVL Dept,
Bethany Indonesian Church of GOD,
Philadelphia, PA

Perfect? we can't. Excellent? We can.

Brad Weber

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Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2010, 10:36:50 pm »

If it is a new install in a new building, then it might be worth considering how a digital console and/or digital snake could affect the overall cost.  You may be able to offset greater equipment costs with potential savings in conduit, cabling, etc.

Aspects such as the general system form are difficult to address without additional information on the physical space and functional requirements.  If it is a new building and new system, you are into the scale where getting professionals in to address the acoustics and AVL would likely be beneficial, as would getting them involved while the space is being designed.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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Chris Harwood

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Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 11:38:59 pm »

Brad Weber wrote on Sun, 04 July 2010 03:36

If it is a new install in a new building, then it might be worth considering how a digital console and/or digital snake could affect the overall cost.  You may be able to offset greater equipment costs with potential savings in conduit, cabling, etc.

Aspects such as the general system form are difficult to address without additional information on the physical space and functional requirements.  If it is a new building and new system, you are into the scale where getting professionals in to address the acoustics and AVL would likely be beneficial, as would getting them involved while the space is being designed.

I think the digital route might be a mistake, with untrained volunteers starting out, although I know it can be learned.  Just the logical layout of a analog board would solve a lot of initial problems.

Getting a consultant in ...and yes it is a new building, etc... unfortunately isn't going to happen.  I've suggested that an amount, but haven't seemed to had much sucess in that area.  Plus, there's the availability in our location, which is limited (both in availability and the quality of work, imo).  I think the local installers would just get something like the Allen and Heath or a Soundcraft in that price range, some speakers, hang 'em up and run the cables... end of story.

The construction has past the point that cable runs thru the floor are no longer an option (no trench) and I think acoustic treatment will be addressed to "fix" after the fact.
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Darin Brunet

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Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2010, 11:44:02 pm »

Without knowing what your specific needs are, it is hard to recommend a mixing desk. You said you would prefer an analog desk. I would rethink that.

When using volunteers, anyone who turns a knob whether on purpose or accidentally, changes the system for good or bad. Getting it back to "Starting Position" means you're cranking a lot of knobs. On a digital desk, you would simply recall a stored scene and Viola! you're back to your original settings.

Digital desks are not that intimidating to learn, although would have a learning curve to maximize its usefulness. Some are easier than others. Features vary from unit to unit but all are resettable to a preset scene. This is valuable to me.

As far as desks go, Crest Audio HP-Eight 48ch analog mixer is in your price range, also 2 PreSonus StudioLive 24.4.2 linked via FireWire. Each is in the USD6600 price range and would give you the input channels you desire. Each has its plusses and minuses but I would go the digital route if at all possible.

The Crest is a fine 48 input board with 8 subgroups, 10 Auxes, LR+M outputs and a 4-band EQ per channel strip. The StudioLive will also give you 48 mono inputs with 4 subgroups (the subgroups and main LR are disabled on the slave unit), LR+M outputs and a slew of EQ and Dynamics processing for all inputs, all 20 aux sends and main outs. This is just a general run down not an exhaustive feature list.

Going digital in your price range has other options as well. Forget DigiDesign, Midas, Cadac, DiGiCo they are not in your price range.

Tascam, Yamaha and some others have mixers in your price range. But don't discount the StudioLive for lack of motorized faders or input level recall, they are easy, easy, easy to use and sound great.

my 2 cents

Chris, is there anyone in your area who can do sound plots from your architectural drawings (EASE, SMAART)? What about the rest of the system... speakers, amps, cabling, mics???
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Chris Harwood

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Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 01:21:32 am »

Darin Brunet wrote on Sun, 04 July 2010 04:44



Chris, is there anyone in your area who can do sound plots from your architectural drawings (EASE, SMAART)? What about the rest of the system... speakers, amps, cabling, mics???


I don't think so.  And I personally am not discounting the benefits of some of your suggestions for the digital.

What we are really needing is someone who REALLY knows their stuff, come and make a convincing presentation and proceed from there.  However, I understand we can't put the chicken before the egg and get someone first, without hiring them.  That's one hurdle.  I have some credibility because I have a degree in music from Berklee and am pretty much the only person in the church that knows the differece between balanced and unbalanced lines and have played on the praise team the last 6 years and guitar for 45+ yrs,  and own a small studio.  But, for some, it's hard to comprehend why you just don't buy some equipment and plug it up, especially if someone "untrained" can push faders.

Our sanctuary is going to be all "open", guessing about 75 x75 holding about 4-500 seats with "two story" ceilings...vaulted. Basically a steel framework building, without any center support posts.  Cement slab.
Contemporary praise and worship.. the normal elec gtrs, synths and a handful of singers.  Currently no drummer (I use a looper with prerecorded Toontrack drums).  No stage volume...we all go direct currently.  Plan on the aviom and currently getting people used to IEM with a small monitor board now in our current setup, which we will leave (this location) as soon as the build is finished.
Figuring the 40 inputs for growth, as we can eat up about 25 now without trying too hard.  I understand about the digital snakes, cat5 stuff, am pretty much familiar with what's out there, but couldn't tell you if a new $7500 Allen and Heath is better than a MC7L or a used Yamaha analog or a used Soundcraft or a ???.  My upper end board experience is studio use ONLY, with Harrison and Sony/MCI desks...older stuff, from my old studio engineering days.

So basically, I might have some "pull" with decisions, potentially being a new sound team leader.  But that I will know in a week or two.
That said, I'm probably also the only person who has seen a board costing over $5k up close and actually used it.  

I originally threw out some figures of $200/seat, and that presented some serious sticker shock.  However, it IS desired to get some "good stuff" on the $75k budget I was alluding to.  Which actually will probably be some of the best in a 75 mile radius, to my knowledge (and I've looked around too).

sorry for the long post, but trying to give more details.
MUCH thanks in advance.  HUGELY appreciated.
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Chris Harwood

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Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2010, 01:29:52 am »

One last thought.

I'm at a MINIMUM trying to get away from the "consumer" stuff and at least get into a mid-range or lower level "pro"...if that makes sense.

In other words, no Peavey sanctuary series board or the LX7II Soundcraft, the lower end power amps, Musician's friend JBL speakers.. hopefully I'm being clear.

Buy used from a "larger" church moving up to a Midas, Digi, or going digital, looking to ditch their large format analog was my potential interest.  But also looking to keep the board cost at no more than 10-20% of the total system, if that is on track.
We've got the small stuff like the wirless, other mics, mic cables and misc stuff like that.  Will just need "interconnecting" cables and the main components.  I've got a pile of old rack gear which will do for starters if going analog.
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Christy L Manoppo (okky)

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Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2010, 01:44:26 am »

Quote:

What we are really needing is someone who REALLY knows their stuff, come and make a convincing presentation and proceed from there.


I think that you still need hire a consultant that can take in your specific needs and conditions. As this is important in the long term, so it kinda create a "balance" for your current, and also longterm "goal".

If you're still kinda stuck for doing it all yourself, then you need to consider:

1. conduits, which will run cable paths/signal paths. Ex, snakes, analog or digital? Another example about signal path, other than audio is,  you need to consider cable run for video, and even lighting.

2. Acoustics. Bad acoustics make good PA sounds horrible.

3. PA/mains. Spend your budget on these very carefully. A good mixer can sound bad if the PA is not up to the task.

These, IMO, are the most important design factors that you need to consider very,very carefully.

--edited-- add some factors
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Christy L Manoppo
Coordinator for AVL Dept,
Bethany Indonesian Church of GOD,
Philadelphia, PA

Perfect? we can't. Excellent? We can.

Dick Rees

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Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2010, 11:12:26 am »

All other considerations aside, I would consider very carefully just how many outputs you need and for what purposes.  If it's one or two mixes going out to different locations you can get along well with running through a line distro to control your various zones.  But if you need more than one or two specific mixes you'll want to have enought auxes or matrixes to put out what you need.  Either analog or digital can do this for you.  Digital probably is a bit more flexible with being able to assign outputs for different purposes, but an analog desk with 10/12 auxes and four or more matrixes will do just fine.

So this is the feature set which I would consider before anything else.  At this level almost any product with the feature set is going to be a fully functional, professional level desk.
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Chris Harwood

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Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2010, 12:41:17 pm »

we will be running the FOH mix, a video mix and  another mix if needed for the hallways and classrooms.  So...a LCR mix in the sanctuary and two mono mixes....or hopefully stereo for the video.  That shouldn't be too demanding, I' think.

To repeat:
 Installation and acoustical treatment will be AFTER the fact.  I can be almost positive about that unless I can find a consultant that will convince the Pastors that they are needed, IN THE NEXT couple weeks and incorporate this install into the build. The slab is poured and the framing basically done and we are moving forward fast.

so therefore discussion about these topics is sorta off subject, but definately NOTED this is NOT the preferred and logical progression. I am not the final decision maker but in a position of giving advice TO BE CONSIDERED.

MAYBE my next question should be, who NEAR Paducah can maybe outline a system at a minimal charge (or close to free), as I will not be able to convince for funds upfront.  With a SOLD and convincing presentation, which I DO believe could actually happen (with the right installer/consultant), then things could proceed forward.
Also, does $50 -75K qualify even qualify for some "pro" advice, seeing that this isn't a "high end, top of the line" install?
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2010, 12:41:17 pm »


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