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[Chris Harwood]

Growing up with the old JBL 4560 cabinets, 2440 horns (or 2482) and good ole Crown DC 300a amps, I'm looking to own another "killer" PA system for small venues.  However, not looking to shuck out $10k

I have the board, cables, etc... but mainly looking for the amps, crossovers and speakers.

Obviously, Musician's Friend and their ilk don't carry stuff I'm looking for and I don't want to buy $10k worth of NEW speakers anyway from a place like that.


So..

Building the "ole" JBL4560 cabinets could only cost about $100/cabinet plus the speakers.  Find some horns and lens and a couple new/used QSC or Crown amp...?
Is this just plain obsolete?  Knowing what appears that the line arrays are what's been happening in permanent installs, I want something I can load and setup in under an hour.

Anyrate, I used to have 4 JBL bass bins, 4 horns and a pile of Crowns, and it screamed.  
Looking for the same and wondered what direction I should be thinking for use in 2010.
Looking for two vocal mics, electronic drums and one guitar and synth to get a "contemporary praise and worship" volume in a 500 seat room or some decent "punch" at small outdoor events.

I'll forgo monitors too....

[Brad Weber]

The 4560 are really more a bass bin as their output below 100-120Hz drops off by about 6dB.  The 2440 and 2482 are compression drivers that on a matching horn cover from about 500Hz to 5-12kHz.  Using that combination for electronic drums and synth would probably be missing a lot of the highs and lows people expect from modern systems, so you might end up at least adding subs and maybe something to supplement the high end.  You'd also want to consider what horns would make the most sense for your intended use, many of the common horns of that day that provided reasonable directivity control were also rather large.

You mentioned line arrays for installed systems, which typically means flown arrays.  Are you thinking along the lines of an installed system where the devices may be flown or more in terms of a portable ground stacked type configuration?

Signal processing is probably where some of the biggest changes have occurred with modern gear.  For a modern system you'd probably be looking at a DSP unit rather than just a crossover, that way you have not just a crossover but also EQ, delay, limiting, etc.  The challenge may be that you would also probably have very limited information regarding any initial processor settings and would have to figure it out on your own using whatever tools you have available.

If you already have a bunch of vintage gear or are going for a vintage look, then putting together what is in effect a vintage system might make sense.  Otherwise, between reliability, acceptance by users, performance and other factors, it might make more sense to look at newer gear.

You say that the online vendors don't have the type of gear you are looking for but you also seem to indicate that you plan to spend less than $10,000 on the speaker system.  Those aren't necessarily contradictory comments but they are potentially a bit conflicting.  Could you clarify what equipment you had in mind that the typical online vendors don't sell and that you might be considering?

[Tom Young]

I agree that you would also need decent subs below the 4560's. Modern 2" drivers on appropriately matched HF horns would work well (out-perform what we used "back then"). But you will need to go through the process of mesurement, listening, tweaking, etc to establish the best crossover points/characteristics.

I built tons of 4560's back in the 1980's but I used birch plywood and beefed up the curved horn flares with polyurethane foam and employed better jointing, paint plus R&R hardware. They were substantially superior to off-the-shelf 4560's.

If you work in a market where riders are not a deal-breaker then this course of action could work. But another factor may be appearance: stacks of 4560's over subs with HF horns on top may be a bit much for the fashion police  

The stacks we worked with 20+years ago were *not* intended for "arraying". That is something else to consider.

Finally: a 4560-based system is hard to break down into smaller systems that will fit in medium-sized SUV's or (even) cars. Got trucks and vans ?

I have found the entire Zx series from EV to be remarkably good soundng with very decent output/power handling for the cost and weight. Only one of these is self-powered, however. ZX's with Danley subs would be "kller" and this might fit into your budget.

[Chris Harwood]

Brad Weber wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 05:03

Could you clarify what equipment you had in mind that the typical online vendors don't sell and that you might be considering?

The current crop of particle board or plastic EON type speakers, pole mounted etc.   Which is in the same price range  (or actually more) as building 4560 or Altec A7 cabinet and slapping a $250 speaker in them.

[Chris Harwood]

transportation or appearance would  NOT be factor with this system.  Since I've been kinda out of the loop with PAs over the years, I was just inquiring how the 4560 and some horns might compare.
My initial impressions are that the <$1000 offerings in the "catalogs" aren't really any better, if not worse than these dinosaur systems.  I bought some JBL dual 15's with a horn about 8 years ago (they were the "budget" speaker of day and I just looked at the JBL name), and they sure weren't the 2220 or a D130.  The 2482 I also realize needs a tweet, whereas the 2440 might escape with out one.  If the system goes from 60 to 12K, I'm OK with that.

that said...
I realize the 4560/combo nowadays would need a sub (and some tweets maybe too), but guitar and drums thru them sound pretty good.  I could give up some 'air' just going up to 12K, but might lean towards a sub for the kick drum.

One last item.. not looking for a line array, as I realize they are usually flown, but also realizing you don't see huge stacks of bass bins at concerts anymore!!  Just wondered how far the "arrays" have come was really the only interest.  Not practical for my 'smallish' gigs (at the moment!) for now.

thx for the replies guys... just the kind of info I need to make some decisions.  (but anymore comments highly appreciated!)

[Brad Weber]

Chris Harwood wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 23:39

One last item.. not looking for a line array, as I realize they are usually flown, but also realizing you don't see huge stacks of bass bins at concerts anymore!!  Just wondered how far the "arrays" have come was really the only interest.  Not practical for my 'smallish' gigs (at the moment!) for now.

I am reminded of Don Davis talking about how people bragging about their huge, tens of thousands of Watts systems can actually be addressing how inefficient the system is rather than how the results differ.  More modern products can often get the same or better results with less gear and less power.  We've also learned more about the interactions between multiple drivers or devices in a system and how to optimize those, which can lead to a "less can be more" approach and concepts such as center clustering the subs or creating sub arrays.

Here's an example of a pretty direct comparison of old and new, http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/370871/38846/0// /13457/#msg_370871.  The first post shows the older house system and what Danley brought in for one show.  When we first started loading in the Danley gear the house staff were all "Do you really need all that?"  When we were loading out after the show they were all "I can't believe you got that much from so little."  You probably could have halved the speaker count with the Danley gear and more than matched the existing house system on its best day (which was long ago, we were pulling handfuls of dust and fuzz out of the mouths of the HF horns and some of the boxes were completely missing drivers).

[Kent Thompson]

Wow this takes me back my first set of PA speakers were 4560s.

[Arnold B. Krueger]

Chris Harwood wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 03:13

Building the "ole" JBL4560 cabinets could only cost about $100/cabinet plus the speakers.

Quality drivers aren't cheap, and many of the classic high efficiency JBL drivers are being snapped up so quickly that there aren't any big savings for used equipment.

The not-so-hidden costs of classic speaker systems lie in their size and weight. You're talking 36" x 30" x 24" and over 90 pounds.

Quote:

Find some horns and lens and a couple new/used QSC or Crown amp...?

I think the tweeter drivers are close to $500 each new, and that the used equipment market for them is a seller's market.

YOu can save some money with comparable drivers from say, B&C for the tweeters and Eminance for the woofers.

Quote:

Is this just plain obsolete?  Knowing what appears that the line arrays are what's been happening in permanent installs, I want something I can load and setup in under an hour.

Someone mentioned EV ZX series speakers.  ZX 5s are 30" x 17" x 16" and weigh about half as much. They are -3 dB at 60 Hz. This is about trading size and weight for efficiency. They are rated at 600 watt continuous and 2400 peak for a max calculated SPL of > 130 dB SPL. ZX5s are very smooth and clean.

The newer technology speakers are very setup-friendly.

[George S Dougherty]

Sounds like you're looking for a solution similar to what I put together.

If you're contemplating building cabinets for the old speakers I'm guessing you're not opposed to DIY.  Head over to billfitzmaurice.com and take a look at the designs.  They're not simple box cabinets with a hole in the front but they also don't perform like your traditional reflex loaded cabinets.  I'm running a stack of 2-4 OT12's per side with 2-4 Titan 48 on the low end.  The speakers are vertically arrayable, though I don't fly mine nor did I build them with fly hardware.  Ground stacking has worked just fine for me so far.  I consistently get comments on how good the system sounds.  Indoors for 500 people I'd bring 4 OT12's and a pair of the Titans.  Mine are bigger for lower extension, for modern PW type stuff you could easily get by with the smaller Titan 39.  The number on the end is the cabinet length.

The really great thing is the efficiency of the horn loaded cabs.  I've run hip-hop with pounding bass in a parking lot off the single 15 amp circuit that was available.  Granted I'm also running QSC PLX2 series class-H amps so the amps and cabinets are power efficient.  Any of the Class-H, Class-D or Class-I amps should provide similar results.  You pay more for them but you also get light weight in addition to the efficiency.  Some people prefer Class-A/B on sub duty but my PLX3602 has done a great job and produces powerful bass, albeit with far more headroom than I really need on subs.

If you go with billfitzmaurice designs, you'll need some DSP like the Driverack series from dbx or get some amps with decent DSP built into them.  The iTechs would be the ideal but the XTi works okay as well.  Haven't seen the DSP built into the new lightweight Peavey amps, those may work as well.  Like many high-end cabinets they need DSP to sound optimal and some, like the DR series, require DSP to really sound good.  The horn loading provides great efficiency but also exaggerates some frequency ranges as well.  With an RTA or a well trained set of ears they can and do sound phenomenal though.

My whole setup is built with BFM designs and I couldn't be happier for the money and time I spent putting it all together.  I have about $2K in all 8 tops, $1400 in 4 subs and $1K in 4 monitors (need to build a few more).  The great thing is you can start with a handful and grow into a larger system.

[Tom Young]

Here at LAB and elsewhere the quality of Bill Fitzmaurice speaker designs has come into question. As have his methods of measurement and verification.

Despite your frequently posted enthusiasm for this stuff here, George, I feel an obligation to point out that not everyone agrees with you.

I have no experience with them and have no interest in (nor time for) researching how well, or poorly, they work.

I only wish to provide a "proceed with caution" response.

[ProSoundWeb Community]