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Author Topic: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities  (Read 11242 times)

Mark Simpson

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2010, 09:49:58 am »

Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 05:59


I don't know exactly what you envision doing or what your potential competition is doing and this is getting more into a LAB Lounge rather than Church Sound topic, but if you are planning on doing this as a business then you need to look at the equipment as an investment.


This system is built up from left over stuff I've accumulated over the years from previous business attempts, personal bands, ministry, etc.. It is intended first for ministry use... my target customer base would be local county/city sponsored events, weddings church outreaches, Christian youth group events, etc...


Quote:

  That does not mean necessarily having to buy the latest and greatest, but it can mean making sure that whatever you purchase supports the envisioned use, is reliable and is acceptable to your potential clients.  It's sometimes not so much what you can afford as it is what is required to be viable from a business perspective or what offers the greatest return on investment.


Been there, done that.... Where I live, I am subjected to severe weather, long drives, and higher than normal business costs combined with lower than normal customer base in a very depressed economy.. Survival here is all about doing 'many' things to make ends meet...

I have 'zero' interest in going into debt for this or chasing after the continual war against obsolecense... I have a small system capable of handling maybe 500 people or more in the right conditions... It all works, it is all reliable.. and as opportunity and 'cash' becomes available I plan to 'add to' and 'upgrade' here and there.. largely with used gear sold off by someone else who is stuck in the throws of gear lust, and wants funding for the next latest/greatest technology...

That lusting after the ultimate system s not fun.. been there/done that...

Currently, all I need is to flesh out my monitor system... and some more outboard gear and a couple more vocal mics...

I like the idea of a used 02r because of all the included effects, dynamics, and the ability to expand to more inputs and link to additional mixers down the road... plus that whole 'recall' thing... and the ability to seamlessly integrate it at home with my DAW.. So, I am 'exploring' this possibility...

Ultimately, it will come down to what opportunities God places in my path...

Quote:

Rather than purchasing based on what you think you can afford now, you may find that a viable business plan means either scaling back your initial goals or scaling up your initial investment.


I don't know how I can 'scale' back more than $400-500 for a mixer to replace the current 24ch 4 bus one I already have...

Quote:

  Put simply, if this is really a business venture then buy equipment that makes sense from a business perspective and not just what fits whatever budget you happen to have at the time.


LOL.. who said 'anything' about a business venture?.. I have a system that largely collects dust most of the time.. I want to make it work for me some.. First and foremost, this is a hobby/ministry, so whatever I do with it would be 'enjoyable'... I don't want to turn it into a business where I live or die with it's success..

I just want to hire it out a few times a year outside of my using it for my own churches events, and have a little fun making a little extra money to add to the other things I do to keep a roof over my head and food in my belly...

I've been 'investing' in this for more than 35 years.. I'm tired of watching stuff become obsolete before it's even half paid off... and then some other guy answer an add in the paper and get to enjoy my used gear for a fraction of what I paid for it.. From here out, I want to try being 'that guy'...  Very Happy

I make it a regular habit to stop in the pawn shop when I drive by and look to see if anything 'interesting' has shown up there..  I've bought some nice stuff there for a song.. ebay and craigslist are turning out to be great resources as well...

This is not to be a formal business venture, just some extra money on the side for doing something that I get satisfaction from... and an opportunity to meet more people...
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Brad Weber

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2010, 10:45:16 am »

Sorry if I misunderstood your comment "My personal system is getting close to the point where maybe I can start hiring it/me out for live events."  That made it sound like you did plan to do this as a business.  While you can call it what you want, if you are charging for the service, much less profiting from it, then it is a business.  That means that clients should be able to expect an appropriate level of quality and professionalism as well as your providing proper insurance coverage, having proper licensing, paying property tax on your business property (e.g. your system), etc.

If all you can afford is a $500 mixer then that is fine, just please don't start trying to lead clients to believe that what you offer is comparable to what others offer when it is not.  And if you plan to charge anything then do address the issues such as a business license, taxes, insurance, etc. as those are not only there to protect both you and your clients, but are typically legally required.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
www.museav.com

Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2010, 12:13:57 pm »

Lee Buckalew wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 04:46

A typical computer also won't take ambient temps of over 100.



I beg to differ. I've got desktops of all ages working in client industrial environments where 100 degree+ F air temperatures are pretty routine.

While operating at higher temperatures naturally reduces lifespan, most electronics are pretty happy at 110-120 F actual surface temperature.

The most temperature sensitive component in a PC might be the hard drive, which is speced for operating temperatures up to 60 degrees C, or 140 degrees F. Of course you have to honor this spec in actual use given that it generates a fair amount of heat on its own.

Operating at higher temperatures almost always hurts reliability.

If you go to places where temperatures in country are 100 to 120 F, you see a lot more attention paid to things like cooling fans.

The most common temperature-related failures I see are of laptops that lock up or reboot themselves when the ambient temperatures are high. Often the cause is a marginal hard drive.

Obviously, you want things to run as close to 70 degrees or so as possible. But if you've got to do what you've got to do, going over 100 degrees F should not be a big problem.

Note that metal and plastic gets nasty to touch for long when it gets much above 110 F, and by 120 F you probably don't want to touch it routinely.
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Mark Simpson

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2010, 12:36:47 pm »

Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 07:45

Sorry if I misunderstood your comment "My personal system is getting close to the point where maybe I can start hiring it/me out for live events."  That made it sound like you did plan to do this as a business.  While you can call it what you want, if you are charging for the service, much less profiting from it, then it is a business.  That means that clients should be able to expect an appropriate level of quality and professionalism as well as your providing proper insurance coverage, having proper licensing, paying property tax on your business property (e.g. your system), etc.

If all you can afford is a $500 mixer then that is fine, just please don't start trying to lead clients to believe that what you offer is comparable to what others offer when it is not.  And if you plan to charge anything then do address the issues such as a business license, taxes, insurance, etc. as those are not only there to protect both you and your clients, but are typically legally required.



LOL.. Gimme a break!!!.... There is a level of service for every level of client and need...

Not everything is a full blown concert, nor can every client afford to pay for such... The $400-500 I might charge (or in some cases just expenses plus a love offering) for a days full of work would be more than worth it to many to have the sound system 'handled'...

If you feel that a used 02r or a mackie SR 24/4 is not up to the level that can be used to 'charge a fee' for, then don't do it.. But I'm not gonna get caught up in the gear snob BS.. Been there, done that... I'm just gonna used good ole backwoods common sense.. Try it some time.. It's an amazing concept!

But I tell you the truth, there are a lot of small systems out there being rented hired out that offer a 'heck of a lot' less than I do, and the clients are very happy to have hired them.. Because it beats the heck out of hollering through a bull horn! Or going out and spending 10G on mains, amps, subs, processors, cables and mics, a stage and everything else, don't it?

Have you 'always' been this picky? Straining at gnats? Do you work for the federal govt or what? Sounds like the same mentality... Lemme guess, you're that kid who was afraid to step on the crack, for fear your mom's back would get broken... I bet you were the window monitor in class weren't you?

And those putting on the event are responsible for any insurance or licenses required.. anything else is easily covered under my existing business license (which is not even legally required out here in rural shasta country, just a simple DBA) and contractors license (which I plan to restore, once the economy allows)..

How many people do you know that go out and get 'insurance' for their 5G wedding or their easter sunrise service for their own small church?...

Are you this 'perfect' at following the law in every danged area of your 'own' life? Ever throw a spray paint can out? How about a battery.. Well, you've just broken EPA laws? Ever went over the speed limit? Forgot to put on your turn signal? Off with your head! Are all the steps at your house within 1/8" of equal height? Ever broke a fluorescent bulb? Did you call Haz Mat when it happened? If you've been a good boy in every area of your life such as those mentioned above, I bet you're a real pill to be around... Did you ever go help an old person clean up their property, and when they offered you 20 bucks for a days work, insisting you take it, were you racked with guilt in that you operated your 'business' without the proper insurance and licensing for the dang day?

Some of you dudes are wound up way to dang tight! It's a wonder you have 'any' friends or are able to get 'anything' done at all! When you see a hurting friend that needs comforting and a compassionate ear, do you sit there and lecture him that his tail light is out and how he is immoral for driving that way? Or is it possible for your legalistic ass to ever overlook an infraction of the codebook?

Am I being a bit sarcastic here? You betcha!.. Because the complaint I'm hearing is utterly ridiculous!

Is this free America, or communist China for crying out loud? Why is it necessary to turn every conversation into a contest to see who can point out the most minutia of human weakness in those involved?

I don't know where some of you anally retentive types live, but I live here on fallen earth!

DAMN! LIGHTEN UP ALREADY!
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Mark Simpson

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2010, 12:46:14 pm »

PS.. I report 'every' dime I make, even accounting for returned bottles and cans! So don't 'even' go there!
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Dick Rees

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2010, 12:57:48 pm »

Mr Simpson.....

Sorry you're in such pain.  Please consider local professional help for your problems.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2010, 01:24:38 pm »

I would like to see spec sheets on typical computers that list ambient operating temperatures of over 100 degrees.  Most that I have seen are in the 95 degree max range.  Every bit over the maximum range limits the life of the item.  You will also void warranties operating in over temperature conditions.

Can it be done, yes.  Does it take massively more airflow than most systems are designed for, yes.  I would suggest monitoring critical temperature areas constantly under these conditions.
Typical airflow increases to maintain mid range temps for a computer operating at 100 - 105 degree's would be to increase from below 100 CFM for the typical desktop computer to well in excess of 300 CFM.  Precise figures would require precise maximum BTU and heat sink area knowledge.  
If you could utilize a liquid cooled unit and provide some cooling or at least turbulent high volume, low velocity air movement for the "radiator" this would be optimum.
I have not seen anyone recording in these kind of temperatures without being inside a cooled van or motorhome.  
Live is a different story altogether but requires careful attention to cooling if you want things to last.

His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
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Robert Whittemore

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2010, 01:36:21 pm »

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 12:57

Mr Simpson.....

Sorry you're in such pain.  Please consider local professional help for your problems.


LOL! Seriously, if you are coming to this forum for help and opinions...don't get all riled up when someone tries to actually help you. You were given great advice and chose to go off the deep end instead of saying, "thank you".
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Robert Whittemore

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2010, 01:37:45 pm »

Mark Simpson wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 12:46

PS.. I report 'every' dime I make, even accounting for returned bottles and cans! So don't 'even' go there!

Once again...you were not accused of wrongdoing. You take everything as an attack. Relax.
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Mark Simpson

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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2010, 01:54:38 pm »

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 09:57

Mr Simpson.....

Sorry you're in such pain.  Please consider local professional help for your problems.



Christians recommending shrinks (instead of the Lord).. nice!

Yeah, I'm a pain because I find it ridiculous that when I ask about mixers for setting up a little hobby system for occasional hire, I get lectured first about the ethics of what I offer vs what I charge (of which Mr. Weber 'really' had no idea of what I have and what I'm thinking about charging, nor to whom), then when I explain he made a 'wrong assumption' I get lectured about taxes, insurance, and licenses instead...

So if I am a 'pain' because I get bothered at all the self righteous 'lecturing' from a (very) few around here about crossing every 'T' and dotting every 'I' from pharisitical zealots who themselves can not 'possibly' stand up to the same scrutiny they dish out, then yeah.. "GUILTY AS CHARGED!"

And I can't help hear all the charges ring in my ears of 'hypocrisy' and 'legalism' and lack of grace I here from those I witness to, when  the subject of the church comes up... when I have to deal with the same mentality form a select few here... I can definitely understand their complaints! Law first, grace second (if at all), right?

Why don't you do a poll and see just how many others around here, when they read my original comments, their first reaction was to rend their garments and rub ashes on their forehead, exclaiming Oh my gosh, this guy might actually be doing some sort of 'work' without first having checked with our class monitors and showing his papers as proof he has all the proper licenses and insurance and what not..

Yeah, that and the automatic assumption that I 'didn't' was noted as well..

Now, if you don't mind, I'll see if I can find some poor sot broken down on the side of the highway, and tell him I'd lie to help him, but I don't have the proper insurance... Then I'll go find a homeless guy and offer him five bucks and a hot meal on the condition he proves to me that he reports them both to the IRS as gifts...

Something tells me, that if Mr. Weber, or yourself were homeless, and in need of work, and someone offered you a few bucks to come and do some work around their house, that your/his first question would not be, "Do you have liability and workers comp insurance?"

Or maybe it would be...

Believe it or not, some of us inferior types are just trying to get through life the best we can, so it'd be nice if you perfect ones that have already attained it, can show a little 'patience' and not be so quick on the trigger... You know, that whole fruit of the Spirit thing?..

The problem with pointing your fingers at someone, is that the other 'three' are pointing back at you... If someone feels they can dish it out, they should be prepared to take it as well...

My prayer, "Lord, have mercy on me, the sinner." He can, why can't some here?
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Re: Digital Mixers... Considering possibilities
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2010, 01:54:38 pm »


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