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Author Topic: Sub-Groups vs everthing in Mono  (Read 7882 times)

Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Sub-Groups vs everthing in Mono
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2010, 07:58:50 am »

Keith Shannon wrote on Tue, 01 June 2010 16:18

 A good mix with good sources approaches a steady-state that requires only marginal adjustments to maintain.


IME this is very true should you have the good fortune to finally crank in that good mix, and start out with those good sources.

Particularly in church many of us do a lot of work that has many buiilt-in uncorrectable compromises, in terms of personel, production, and environment.
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Don Sullivan

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Re: Sub-Groups vs everthing in Mono
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2010, 01:24:06 pm »

Just to re-iterate what I've heard here.....

Sub-Groups add noise by introducing a mixing and amplification stage, and each stage adds noise and coloring to the sound. If you are not "golden-eared" or in a venue with pristine conditions you probably won't notice in a complex mix.

On analog desks I have used sub-groups to provide a dynamics choke-point. Vocals, Bass, Drums, Pastor, Keys, Guitars each in their own group with their own compressor / limiter can keep things from running away.

Riding faders is mixing as far as I'm concerned. As a FOH operator you have the final say on what people hear. It is rare to find a group of musicians who so perfectly balance themselves throughout a song, that adjustments are unnecessary. Compressors really help out, one of the reasons I prefer digital to analog consoles. compressors / dynamics on every channel, no need for a common dynamics choke point, digital grouping, everybody routed to the mains in one big happy mix.

I've seen hundreds of FOH console operators and they usually fall into two camps. The mixers, who are actively part of the music, providing balance and flow through a song, and the Showtime Rotisserie ("Set it, and forget it!") engineers whose main goal is to make sure nothing is clipping and all faders are at zero. I am a mixer. I find that musicians who become FOH operators are mixers, while technicians with less musical training go the Showtime route.

I would rather train a musician on the mixer and technology than try to train a technician / engineer on how music should sound.

My 2 cents.  Cool


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Shad Hall

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Re: Sub-Groups vs everthing in Mono
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2010, 04:48:46 pm »

Jonathan Johnson wrote on Sat, 22 May 2010 21:40

Christy L  Manoppo (okky) wrote on Sat, 22 May 2010 23:14

Hmm... I think I read somewhere, that using the sub groups actually  degrade the audio quality a bit, because the audio must pass to another set of circuit. Some say they can hear the difference, some say not.

Just use your ears and train them at the best.


I think the term degrade isn't necessarily correct. For some technicians, using the sub groups may actually improve the overall sound quality because it's easier for them to mix without screwing things up.  Very Happy

The oscilloscope doesn't lie: it is unrefutable that the sub groups color the sound. No circuit yet designed has matched a straight wire for purity (for that matter, even a straight wire colors the sound in subtle ways). Therefore, the real question is, is the sound quality impacted negatively, and is that impact significant enough to warrant doing something differently? I'm guessing that in most cases, the answer is "no."

To those who say they can hear the difference: let's arrange an objective, double-blind listening test and then we'll know for sure. When you know that there's a difference, you will expect to hear a difference, and you will perceive a difference.


i realize that i'm resurrecting an old thread, but i have a pertinent follow up question.

why do i get more volume if i run a channel via mono versus group? how should i address this?

thanks
Very Happy
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Shad Hall
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Don Sullivan

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Re: Sub-Groups vs everthing in Mono
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2010, 08:37:28 pm »

<< Why do i get more volume if i run a channel via mono versus group? how should i address this? >>

I assume you are talking about routing to the mains as opposed to routing through a sub-group......

It depends on the "gain structure" of the console you use. You may find that routing through a sub-group drops the effective volume to the console output. You may also find that if you bring the sub-group master fader to the top (which may read +10db) the difference goes away. To determine the actual gain structure changes you can sometimes consult a console specification sheet, or run a test of your own. Turn off your main amps and run an oscillator into an input. adjust the gain and fader for 0 VU output on your console when routed directly to the mains. then route through a sub-master set to Zero on the fader and look for the difference.

Of course, if you route an input to the mains AND through a sub-master you will be adding the signal to itself and this could also be what you are observing.

Cool
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Re: Sub-Groups vs everthing in Mono
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2010, 08:37:28 pm »


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