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[Mark Simpson]

Arnold B. Krueger wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 12:00

Mark Simpson wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 16:19 I need to get my hands on two or three active DI's for an outdoor outreach event coming in sept... I presume that you need these DIs for use with musical instruments. Here's my story - I have a console with excellent equalization per channel, but even when I was using a console with mediocre eq on the channel strips, my strategy was the same. I always end up using a boatload of eq on MI and vocal channel inputs. Not only that, but the eq I use varies from week to week. For example we have ended up with 4 different bass players who use 3 different instruments. They play and therefore sound very, very differently. One is a very strong player, and then he uses a pick. Another is a petite little lady who mainly plays the cello when she's not playing the bass. For openers, it takes about 20 dB more gain for her than the guy I just mentioned. The WD is looking for a certain sound, and the only way to be consistent at all is to eq each bass player and his instrument differently. Sometimes Then I occaisonally get thrown a curve ball, like having the WD ask me to eq the bass so that it blends well with a cello. I have some pretty good DIs (e.g. Whirlwind) and I have some pretty cheap DIs (e.g. Behringer). I end up eqing them all. If one has better bass than the other, that just means that I unknowingly eq them differently to make up the difference. I guess I could think of DIs as sort of like musical instruments unto themselves, but what in fact I think of them as being tools that I use to interface instruments to my console and then the fun begins!

I have no problem or fear of having to eq musicians.. comes with the territory...

Mostly what I'm looking for is something that is 'reliable', well built, will stand the test of time, and is 'affordable' (very affordable)...

I like the countryman DI's because they are bulletproof.. They can take years of abuse and still do what is asked of them 'every time'...You could drop them off the truck, have three or four dozen cars run over them, and they'd still act as if nothing happened.. There's never any issues with the connections or switches(switches are an issue with the stewarts in my experience), they don't inject a bunch of noise, etc...

I just want a nice clean noise free signal in a device that will last and not cost me my first born male child...

After buying the 8ch behringer, and having had to deal with flaky stewarts, I no longer take these things for granted, believing 'any box will do'...

Maybe that helps clear up my question a bit...

If I could afford it, I'd just fork out the cash for the countryman or Radial DI's knowing in my heart that I'd never have to buy them again.. but I can't... maybe next year.. (Along with that shiny new Presonus ACP88 I've been wanting...)

[Mark Simpson]

Dick Rees wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 12:45

Check this out:  http://www.altoproaudio.com/index.php?template=3&id_prod =30&id_padre= I use one of these in a stage rack for whoever shows up with whatever for live radio remotes.  It'll handle anything you throw at it and is certainly "good enough". DR

Now much is that thing? Looks pricey.. but ya never know..

Also, it mentions converting line level signals, but nothing about instrument level signals... Not too concerned about it's ability to deal with speaker level signals....

[Dick Rees]

A simple Google search would tell you that the price for the 4 channel unit is $149.  Also if you would read the information contained in the link you'd see that it can provide up to 20dB of "preamp" gain to the signal.

I don't mean to be crabby, but this is kind of spoon feeding.  I gave you a link which (if you read it) would give you more than enough info.  You have to do some work for yourself in this life.

Or not.......

But seriously...good luck with your project and may your knowledge increase.  

[Mark Simpson]

Dick Rees wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 13:43

A simple Google search would tell you that the price for the 4 channel unit is $149.  Also if you would read the information contained in the link you'd see that it can provide up to 20dB of "preamp" gain to the signal. I don't mean to be crabby, but this is kind of spoon feeding.  I gave you a link which (if you read it) would give you more than enough info.  You have to do some work for yourself in this life. Or not....... But seriously...good luck with your project and may your knowledge increase.

Stupid questions trump stupid mistakes 100% of the time...

Call me crazy, but it would have been much simpler if they simply said "Converts unbalanced line/instrument inputs to balanced outputs" as opposed to mentioning only 'line' level inputs like they did in their bullet point "Converts unbalanced line inputs to balanced outputs"...

Can't use google.. My Browser is so old, 95% of the time, all I get is other search results or pop ups when I click on their result links.. And I can't upgrade my browser, because my OS is too old, and it's pointless spending $200 on a new version of Mac OS for a computer that is 8 or 10 years old...

So, until I can save up the grand entrance fee requested for a shiny new apple lap top, which is not likely to happen 'quickly' as long as this economy has completely destroyed my industry and I keep having 'ministry needs' take priority, I'm kind of stuck relying on others to 'spoon feed' me more than I'd like to....

But trust me, whatever help you're inclined to give to me, it's not in vain.. I am a very 'pay it forward' kind of person.. always wiling to lend a hand or word of encouragement when I can..

Perhaps you're feeling led to make a donation to the cause, so you don't have to put up with such major inconveniences in the future?...

God Bless you and may your grace increase to the measure of your knowledge....  

PS.. I don't believe such a thing as 'luck' exists..

[Mark Simpson]

BTW Dick..

Thanks for the recommendation.... Only trouble I see with such a unit is it can't be located near the musicians (one of the pitfalls with the 8ch unit I already have) So if the Bass is on one side of the stage and an acoustic guitar or violin is on the other, and that thing is in a rack near the rest of the rack gear, then 'someone' is going to be using a very long guitar cord to get to it...

On the 36' wide stage, this can be a problem...

I'd always been taught that one should never use an unbalanced line longer than 10-15 feet.. Is this not the case anymore?

None the less, you've peaked my curiosity... But I'd 'still' rather have dedicated DI's that can be fanned out across the stage... Set in my ways a bit I guess...

Blessings....

[Christy L Manoppo (okky)]

Oh thank God for you guys.. now I know better.

I thought, Active ones are just better (in SQ) than passive ones. That's it.

But in fact .. it doesn't mean that way.

Active's are intended for passive instruments and passive for active instruments.

Again, thanks guys!

[Mark Simpson]

Christy L  Manoppo (okky) wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 15:05

Active's are intended for passive instruments and passive for active instruments.

LOL.. That's a very concise and accurate way to sum it up!

[Frank DeWitt]

There is some very good info on DIs over on the Radial web site.

http://www.radialeng.com/pdfs/Radial-DI-Selector-w-text.pdf

It is not to polite to copy to much of it, but just a little from the link.

In my opinion the key to a good passive DI is a Jensen transformer.  For a few years I would take apart cheep DIs and install Jensen transformers.  You don't get the truck like construction of the good ones but you get the great sound.

Frank
http://lbpinc.com/DI.html


From the link

Passive direct boxes
In the beginning, all direct boxes were passive and they used a transformer as the engine. Therefore, they did not require any electrical powering to make them work. Transformers have several positive traits: Unlike active circuits that go from zero to 100% distortion when the input signal exceeds their working rail voltage, transformers saturate. This yields a smooth transition and creates a ‘natural limiter’ that rounds out the tone of excessively dynamic instruments and removes the digital ‘edge’ that is often harsh. Transformers also provide electrical isolation which makes them particularly good at eliminating buzz and hum caused by ground loops. The downside to transformers is that since they are passive, they have no ‘power assist’ to drive instruments. Therefore, low output instruments like vintage Fender basses tend to lose punch when presented with the low input impedance of a passive device.

Active direct boxes

Generally speaking, active sources such as instruments with built-in battery powered preamps, electronic keyboards, CD players and so on tend to have tons of level available at their output. Because they can be quite loud, they tend to overload most active direct boxes. As such, passive direct boxes are often preferred for active sources as they are more forgiving. When active sources are plugged into the wall for AC powering, they can also introduce ground loops into the audio system. Passive DIs inherently isolate the
input from the output making them particularly good at suppressing common-mode noise, a problem commonly known as ground loops which of course is the main contributor to buzz and hum in a sound system.


Eliminating system noise
In hectic environments such as live stages, time is precious and eliminating system noise is a nightly challenge that can sometimes be easy to resolve while other nights it seems impossible. For the experienced technician, the preferred direct box is generally passive due to the inherent advantage of transformer isolation which in turn, eliminates hum & buzz in the system.

[Mac Kerr]

Frank DeWitt wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 18:46

Eliminating system noise In hectic environments such as live stages, time is precious and eliminating system noise is a nightly challenge that can sometimes be easy to resolve while other nights it seems impossible. For the experienced technician, the preferred direct box is generally passive due to the inherent advantage of transformer isolation which in turn, eliminates hum & buzz in the system.

FWIW, active DIs also have transformers in them. As with passive DIs, the more expensive ones have better transformers, and transformers are what it's about.

Pro Audio Review did a cover story on DIs this month.

Mac

[Christy L Manoppo (okky)]

Dang... prepare to laugh again folks...

I think I need to replace all my DI's ...
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Because all of them are Behringer Ultra-DI.  

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