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[Ryan Fluharty]

So my church would like to slowly start to move towards wired IEMs.  We really don't have a need or budget for wireless IEMs.  Our worship team consists of a pianist (leader), bassist, sometimes a guitarist, a drummer, and 3-4 singers.  The drummer is already on wired headphones.

What is the best way to go about doing this?  We don't have the money to do Avioms/Hearbacks, but yet I think its still a necessity to have some control over volume and maybe some mixing capabilities.

I was thinking of getting these boxes http://www.ccisolutions.com/StoreFront/product/rolls-pm351?O rigin=Category  for all the instrumentalists and go with Shure SCL2 or Sennheiser IE4s.

Also, if our team goes all IEMs, how do you deal with offertories, etc, where the people playing/singing may not be on the team and are used or want to use IEMs?  Should we keep the monitors for instances like these?

Sorry if this is confusing, but I want to make sure we do this right.

[Frank DeWitt]

We were lucky and found a off brand used personal mixer system on Ebay (Intelix Psychologist) so I can't comment on the Rolls, but we do use a monitor for guest soloist and for the choir to hear CD tracks.  All of our Worship team is on personal mixers and IEMs and we love it.

Frank

[Ron Balsom]

Hello,  Just a thought here. Never saw a 351, but looks like it could be a great "fix" say for an individual instrumentalist, such as your drummer thing. At $80 a pop, then consider, mounting, and the wiring alone could be a jungle. (multiple in's and parellel outs to each)  How about a single 'rack' space multiple headphone unit having between 4 and 6 outputs. Depending on the mfg. you'll find some with stereo (2ea) main inputs-in, (some even offer a 3rd aux-in as well) then all the outputs usually have multiple outputs for headphones, master volume control for that particular headphone out, bass, treble, and balance.  You'll want to drive these from the "aux" pre-fader outs on the house mixer, probably sent back through the snake, and think a minute hear, Two different aux mixes into the headphone unit on stage, with the ability to "pan" between them, as well as a possible third aux input. Your 4 to 6 headphone output sections having all those abilities and most have multiple headphone outs in each of the sections. Mounting one unit say right under a music stand would be very accessible and clean.  They'll be some $150 to $200 ea such places as All Pro Sound, Sweetwater, Fullcompass, Musicians Friend, etc. I'm sure less money total and certainly less wire mess. Depending what mixer you have, as you work towards IEMs you'll still want to retain at least one or possibly two typical floor wedge mixes just for those situations you mentioned. Like you said, once your all on new personal monitor mixers, you'll all "be in heaven". Again just a thought,  Ron Balsom HPCC Casper, Wyoming

[George S Dougherty]

The Rolls units can be good for the instances where you want a basic mix and just "more me".  I'm not using them for more-me duty, but they make also a good compact headphone amp.

We have both 4 channels of wedges onstage and capability for 10 stereo IEM mixes.  Works well for us.  I can build mixes around whatever I need, but I have that flexibility with my mix system.  We started IEM's on a Soundcraft Spirit8 board with 4 mono mixes.  It worked okay for a small worship team, but stepping up to stereo mixes on a digital console has made a huge difference for our performers.

What are you currently running for a monitor mixer?  Do you have a dedicated mixer on a split or are you mixing from FOH like I'd guess you are?  Are you mixing on an analog or digital desk?  How many discreet mix outputs are available and can you do stereo mixes with any of them?  Answers to those questions may help shed more light on what's practical.

[Jeremy Johnston]

When I started as Technical Director at my church we had three unused, wireless in-ear-monitor systems.  The major complaints were "harsh, loud house mix; people leaving the church. Fix it!"

I supplemented the wireless IEM systems we had with several Shure P4HW wired IEM packs - these take a single 9-volt battery and have a limiter and high-frequency boost built in.  The P4HW can operate as stereo or mono with two inputs going to both ears.

We have a separate monitor board and operator which is a really big deal in providing good monitor mixes.  I think your PM351 idea could be a very good solution, but be aware of a few things:

Most sound consoles offer the option of some or all Auxiliary outputs to be switched between pre and post-fade.  You'll want all monitor mixes to be PRE fade so that any changes you make to the house sound won't affect the monitor levels.  At the same time, the consoles I've worked with do NOT offer Auxiliary outputs PRE EQ - that means any channel EQ changes you make DO affect the monitors.  This can be difficult to work around, since the IEM mix will definitely sound different to the musicians than the house mix sounds to the mix operator.  That's one reason why a separate monitor board is so helpful.

You certainly CAN (and many places do) operate monitors and house from one console successfully.  Don't let the above scare you away from doing IEM - just be aware of the ramifications.  

It can be advantageous to split at least the "important" channels to two channels on a single console system.  This could be accomplished by having an XLR splitter adapter cable for, say, the leader's guitar and microphone so that the guitar and microphone each took up two channels apiece.  Then you could vary monitor EQ and sends independently of the house EQ and levels. That is, of course, if you have "spare channels" on your console.

The PM 351 does NOT provide any limiting or other hearing protection for the listener.  The Shure P4HW has a very simple (and defeatable) limiter. I consider this a very important function. You can certainly live without a limiter in the IEM system, but it's the last possible point of hearing protection for the listener and it should not be dismissed.  If you have a system with IEM and monitor wedges, it is entirely possible for feedback to get into the ears of an IEM user and cause hearing damage.  You can have feedback even without monitor loudspeakers if you have problems getting enough gain in the house system, but the likelihood is reduced when there are no loudspeakers on stage.  The limiting function could(and should) be provided by an external processor if there isn't a limiter in the belt pack (as with the PM351).

In short, I think a properly set up wired system comprised of PM351 headphone amps could be a workable system with a few additions:

Get a limiter for each mix. You don't HAVE to have stereo, but it's a nice addition if you have the wiring and outputs for it.

Get GOOD earphones or headphones; the first impression of the IEM system will be compromised if the earphones or headphones sound bad.

Teach the musicians how to use the system, again, the usability and first impression of the system will be compromised if it is difficult to use or sound bad because of poor use; that's not your fault as the engineer, but the musician will automatically dismiss the system if they can't get good sound(to them) quickly and easily.

Ask questions here and other places about what works for other churches and groups.  I have a single PM51 (smaller version of the PM351) for a youth band headphone amp; it works well for what it is, but I need to add a limiter ASAP to provide some protection for the listener.

Let us know how you end up deciding.

Jeremy Johnston
Technical Director
Kalispell Christian Center
 

[Aaron McQueen]

First what mixer do you have?  This will make a big difference in what can be done.

Here is what I did as a proof of concept, before we purchased the Aviom system.  I wanted to show that going in-ear would be beneficial to the house mix as well as the band, without the investment of the Aviom.

I picked up a cheap Behringer HA8000 8-channel headphone amp.  It has individual inputs on each channel.  I only used 6 of the channels.  I did not have 6 extra returns running to stage, but I had plenty of channels.  I made some F-F XLR turnarounds on the board side and then a M XLR to TS unbalanced 6-channel snake at the stage.  I patched this into our patch bay behind the stage using the unused channels and ran it to the headphone amp on stage.  Then I ran 25ft headphone extensions (cmple.com) to all the band positions, using a lot of gaff tape and strain relieving it to their mic stand or music stand.  The headphone amp was positioned near our keyboard player so people had to communicate with him if they needed a volume change.   They had to communicate with me if they need mix changes.  It was a little challenging mixing 6 mixes as well as the mains, but once set they didn't ask for a lot of changes.  I cued their mixes regularly to make sure they were reasonable.  We have a Yamaha LS9 so we had plenty of mixes for each musician to get mix.  With the board I was also able to easily add a limiter to each of the mixes to protect their ears.

The results were great.  We ran this setup for about 1-month.
We also fully enclosed the drums.  With those 2 changes we dropped the average room volume by about 6dB and the overall clarity of the mix is greatly improved.  The changes made the Aviom purchase a breeze to push through.  We used the Aviom for the first time live yesterday.  It worked great, and I didn't have to mix monitors from FOH.

[Aaron McQueen]

Jeremy Johnston wrote on Mon, 05 April 2010 10:51

When I started as Technical Director at my church we had three unused, wireless in-ear-monitor systems.  The major complaints were "harsh, loud house mix; people leaving the church. Fix it!" I supplemented the wireless IEM systems we had with several Shure P4HW wired IEM packs - these take a single 9-volt battery and have a limiter and high-frequency boost built in.  The P4HW can operate as stereo or mono with two inputs going to both ears. We have a separate monitor board and operator which is a really big deal in providing good monitor mixes.  I think your PM351 idea could be a very good solution, but be aware of a few things: Most sound consoles offer the option of some or all Auxiliary outputs to be switched between pre and post-fade.  You'll want all monitor mixes to be PRE fade so that any changes you make to the house sound won't affect the monitor levels.  At the same time, the consoles I've worked with do NOT offer Auxiliary outputs PRE EQ - that means any channel EQ changes you make DO affect the monitors.  This can be difficult to work around, since the IEM mix will definitely sound different to the musicians than the house mix sounds to the mix operator.  That's one reason why a separate monitor board is so helpful. You certainly CAN (and many places do) operate monitors and house from one console successfully.  Don't let the above scare you away from doing IEM - just be aware of the ramifications.   It can be advantageous to split at least the "important" channels to two channels on a single console system.  This could be accomplished by having an XLR splitter adapter cable for, say, the leader's guitar and microphone so that the guitar and microphone each took up two channels apiece.  Then you could vary monitor EQ and sends independently of the house EQ and levels. That is, of course, if you have "spare channels" on your console. The PM 351 does NOT provide any limiting or other hearing protection for the listener.  The Shure P4HW has a very simple (and defeatable) limiter. I consider this a very important function. You can certainly live without a limiter in the IEM system, but it's the last possible point of hearing protection for the listener and it should not be dismissed.  If you have a system with IEM and monitor wedges, it is entirely possible for feedback to get into the ears of an IEM user and cause hearing damage.  You can have feedback even without monitor loudspeakers if you have problems getting enough gain in the house system, but the likelihood is reduced when there are no loudspeakers on stage.  The limiting function could(and should) be provided by an external processor if there isn't a limiter in the belt pack (as with the PM351). In short, I think a properly set up wired system comprised of PM351 headphone amps could be a workable system with a few additions: Get a limiter for each mix. You don't HAVE to have stereo, but it's a nice addition if you have the wiring and outputs for it. Get GOOD earphones or headphones; the first impression of the IEM system will be compromised if the earphones or headphones sound bad. Teach the musicians how to use the system, again, the usability and first impression of the system will be compromised if it is difficult to use or sound bad because of poor use; that's not your fault as the engineer, but the musician will automatically dismiss the system if they can't get good sound(to them) quickly and easily. Ask questions here and other places about what works for other churches and groups.  I have a single PM51 (smaller version of the PM351) for a youth band headphone amp; it works well for what it is, but I need to add a limiter ASAP to provide some protection for the listener. Let us know how you end up deciding. Jeremy Johnston Technical Director Kalispell Christian Center

Nice post, all good points to consider.

[Ryan Fluharty]

Hey guys,
Thanks for the responses.  They have been really helpful.

Our sound board is a Behringer MX3282a.  Yes, its not the greatest board and we may be upgrading in a year or two, but are thinking of staying analog for simplicity's sake.  Please don't get into an argument of analog vs. digital here, its a non-issue at this point.  

We mix the monitors from the FOH board.  The board has 6 aux sends, 1,2,5,6 are pre, and 3&4 are dedicated post (no option).  Right now the board is set up as such:

1. Bass Guitar monitor
2. Drum IEM
3. Record feed to computer
4. Blank
5. Piano monitor
6. Center stage/Vox monitor

The drum IEMs are preset on the board and really don't change much.  I play drums and the mix is fine from week to week since our team remains mostly the same.  As a drummer I don't think that fidelity that a singer or instrumentalist is needed in the mix, as long as he can hear the important parts.

I was thinking of going the route of the PM351 and PM50s since they can mount on stands and be very accessible to the team members.  Also we can keep the board set up practically the way we have it now in that we can send 4 different "mixes" on stage and let the team members mix themselves in on top of the basic mix.  For instance, we could send the same generic mix to the singers with all the vocals at low levels, and then they can turn up themselves so they can hear themselves above the others.

In reference to the limiter...is there any product more affordable than a typical compressor/limiter on the market?  I'm thinking if there is an outboard device that does specifically limiting and not compressing, it would be more affordable than a compressor/limiter.  Yes, I do know that limiting is pretty much a hard compressor.

[Brian Ehlers]

Behringer makes several models of affordable 2- and 4-channel compressor/limiters.

It's worth noting that, while a compressor or limiter can stop the peaks from getting too high, it can also have the effect of squashing all the music UP against the limit.  It's basically two different perspectives of the same thing.  If it's only compressing, say, 10% of the music, it's appropriate to think of it as reducing the level.  But if it's compressing, say, 70% of the music, you've actually increased the total amount of energy.  This can be more fatiguing and even more damaging to your ears.

[Matthias Heitzer]

the cheap 4-channel compressor/limiters usually don't have a controllable attack. They react to slow to be a usable limiter.

[ProSoundWeb Community]