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Author Topic: Where to start with purchasing new speakers  (Read 27886 times)

Brad Weber

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2010, 11:52:50 am »

George S Dougherty wrote on Tue, 23 March 2010 10:54

I feel reasonably safe the speakers aren't coming down before the building does.

I think that it is important to note that George had a good idea of the issues involved and specifically tried to address them.  He also had a good situation for attaching the speakers to the structure.  And he is probably willing to assume liability for his work.  These are not all valid for every situation and should not be seen as suggesting that just anyone can or should fly their own speakers or build speakers for flying.

I think David gave some good ideas based on the budget available.  However, the comment regarding running the bass and drums through the system concerns me as if you need the speakers to provide support for those sources beyond their natural sound in that room, then you may be looking for a lot more speaker than a ZX1.
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Brad Weber
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George S Dougherty

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2010, 07:13:19 pm »

Brad Weber wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 09:52

George S Dougherty wrote on Tue, 23 March 2010 10:54

I feel reasonably safe the speakers aren't coming down before the building does.

I think that it is important to note that George had a good idea of the issues involved and specifically tried to address them.  He also had a good situation for attaching the speakers to the structure.  And he is probably willing to assume liability for his work.  These are not all valid for every situation and should not be seen as suggesting that just anyone can or should fly their own speakers or build speakers for flying.

I think David gave some good ideas based on the budget available.  However, the comment regarding running the bass and drums through the system concerns me as if you need the speakers to provide support for those sources beyond their natural sound in that room, then you may be looking for a lot more speaker than a ZX1.


Thanks for repeating my point and clarifying on my comment about it not being advisable for everyone.  You're absolutely right.  We've talked about flying the Bill Fitzmaurice designs on the building forums and I've learned a good amount over there about safety concerns and "over-engineering" for margin.  The situation was ideal for the plan and I certainly wouldn't recommend people fly their own cabinets in most situations.  Production companies looking at our sanctuary for a lighting install discussed load studies on the roof before mounting any truss or bars.  I'd assume the same would be a good idea for hanging speakers from a normal ceiling.

If the budget is $2k, and you have some people willing to build cabinets, I'd give a serious look at the Bill Fitzmaurice designs.  There are several designs that would work well in your room.

One of the best options may be the TLAH Pro.  You can corner or wall mount them either side of the screen like Keith mentioned.  They'll provide a tighter vertical pattern than a traditional speaker and will provide all the performance you should ever need in that room for the top end.  With 8" speakers they'll extend efficiently down to 80Hz, no problem.  You should be easily able to build and wall mount them yourself (worst case with the assistance of someone in the congregation).  They can be built with 8-9 8" speakers for about $450/ea.

http://billfitzmaurice.net/TLAH.html

If you want kick and bass out of the PA, I've never seen a good top that will handle that efectively on their own, or that would fit in your budget.  Easy solution, get a sub or two to handle the bottom end.  There are several options that will provide plenty of output with great quality and can be built for about $300-$350 or less.  We use a single 30" wide Titan 48, roughly the equivalent of a double 18" cab in output volume.  Clarity is no contest between the two.  It does quite well on its own, and cost only $350 and a week of evenings for me to build.  It's a large cabinet so the Titan 39 may be a better fit if you're looking for a small footprint.

Both the Titan subs and the TLAH are very efficient, so you don't need a huge power amp to drive them to loud volumes.

The forums over there are filled with helpful people who've built and use the designs week in and week out for local sound companies and churches.
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John Moore

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 10:54:27 am »

your space is an excellent candidate for the TOA HX-5's , these small speakers will work wonders in your space, can be adjusted for coverage angle. A hang of 2 center clustered (4 speakers in each) or a hang of 1 per side will do you. We have a hang of 2 per side in our church ( a total of 8 speakers) and they do a great job. Coupled with some small subs (don't use the TOA's we toasted them) the system sound really good. If you do a hang per side, just inside of where your fans are. These speakers don't weigh much and come with the hardware to hang, plus they have additional mounting options.

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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 07:57:59 pm »

I have to reply about the TOA's.  They have truly awful coverage.  At 1k the horizontal coverage is about 100 degrees, by 4k it is down to about 22 degree's.
They are definitely among the least expensive but they are also cheap and don't cover well.

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John Moore

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 08:23:24 pm »

I hate to punk you on this but that it not all correct. In real life application the coverage and sound of these speakers is quite impressive for their size and price point offering. In a single hang or even more per side the horizontal in experience and use is quite good and the dB output is loud, clear and overall frequency response is quite good. Not sure if you are doing the numbers off paper or do you have the install to back that up. They are a very good speaker given the application, which for a HOW with limited budget would work great.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2010, 09:21:36 pm »

In real applications that is the case.  It is also the case via TOA's predictive software per a TOA rep specing these in a classroom application where I designed the Theatre spaces.
Tested, with FFT analysis equipment, they fall FAR short of good coverage.  They may work for certain applications but they do not cover evenly.  I can work with gradual equal drop off in level as you move off axis but coverage that narrows with increasing frequency is poor.

If you have multiple point FFT analysis that shows identical source material and the plotted coverage I would like to see it.

Hear is the plot given by another provider for a classroom in the building to which I referred above for the 1k response.  I'll follow with the 4k since there's only 1 attachment per message body.

index.php/fa/515/0/

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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2010, 09:39:24 pm »

Now the 4k response.

An equal drop at all controllable frequencies as you get off axis would be O.K. but this is really unusable beyond about 15 degree's off axis when compared to the 1k.    This is very uneven sound coverage.

It may be that, given the budget and other factors these may be the best compromise but, in most situations for small church spaces line array boxes are not the best choice.  In the same price range I can get much better two way cabinets with far more even coverage capability.

In this room, a very reflective back wall combined with a reverberant room overall, there are two problems with an uneven off axis coverage and a line array.
#1, the forward gain increase (actually the decrease in drop over distance) provided by a line array will create problems off of the back wall.
#2, with a reverberant room and a speaker that produces uneven frequency coverage as the angle off axis changes, you will have a build up of mid and lower frequencies when compared with higher frequencies.  This results from the build up of off axis reflections and the substantially higher level of lower frequencies when off axis.

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Lee Buckalew
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index.php/fa/516/0/
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Russ Buck

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2010, 11:23:28 am »

OK After looking at the TOA HX-5, they are looking like a good candidate for my situation given my budget.  Has anyone used these out there and what was your thought on the sound of these?  From what I read most people are amazed based on the price of them.  Also what sort of processor should I get and what sub.  
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John Moore

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2010, 11:41:15 am »

We have a hang of 2 per side in our church covering the seating areas in front of them. We are using a Peavey VSX26 processor which has all of the necessary PEQ capabilities to do the system well. It works well again for the price point. If you want more info, email me or call.... Razz
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Russ Buck

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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2010, 12:41:30 pm »

what are you using for subs?  and with out subs is there no low end?
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Bethel A/G church
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Re: Where to start with purchasing new speakers
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2010, 12:41:30 pm »


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