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Author Topic: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install  (Read 7688 times)

John Rosborough

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2011, 03:29:56 am »

Here's a closer look at the choir area:
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Brad Weber

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2011, 09:23:13 am »

Just some quick observations from the pictures....
 
  • Since all the lights and fans and even the wiring serving them are surface mounted it appears that the ceiling may be the actual structure.  That would explain the comment about not having anything to attach to, although depending on the actual structure that may not prohibit mounting speakers from that structure, they fairly obviously attached other devices to it, just make it a bit more difficult.
  • I see almost all hard, acoustically reflective surfaces other than the flooring.  I also see mostly flat surfaces and very few diffusive elements other than the chairs and people.
  • The ceiling height is maybe a bit low relative to some other aspects of the space, however the fans and lights make the effective height in terms of any flown or ceiling mounted speakers even lower.
  • The mix position is not apparent nor has it been mentioned what provisions are incorporated as far as conduit, cabling paths and power for the audio system.  Given the surface run power for the lights and fans and finished walls with columns, it seems likely that existing or available cabling paths could be a significant factor in any equipment and device location decisions.
  • With the limited stage height and existing millwork, it at least appears that integrating any subwoofers under the stage might be impractical.  However, that might be a false impression taken from the pictures as you mentioned a 3' rise to the stage and then another 1' rise to the choir when what is in the picture looks more like maybe a 14" to 16" rise and the first row of the choir seemingly on the main platform.  I say that based not only on comparative heights but also on the fact that a 36" rise would typically equate to five risers for the steps and I see what looks like two risers.  Anyways, if the stage is closer to a 14" to 16" height and is framed then that would likely leave around 8-1/2" to 12-1/2" of clear height available, which would limit what subwoofer could potentially be used.  Add in the millwork and steps at the front of the stage and it at least appears that a subwoofer under the stage may be impractical.
  • The stage area looks rather crowded.  This could affect what is practical for choir mics, etc. as while the MicroBooms might provide good results and flexibility to fit the different situations with the choir, they may also not be practical with the limited floor space available.
  • You mentioned that the space is 70' deep and 30' wide, but it is not clear if that is the overall dimension, the dimension of the seating area, whether it includes or excludes the choir area, etc.
My first recommendation is to consider spending some of your $10,000 budget on acoustical treatments.  I'd personally want to try to be able to experience the space in person before making any specific recommendations but I would guess that added absorption on some surfaces and any added diffusion would help.
 
In terms of speakers, I might first consider a low profile center main array with one or more fill arrays further back.  It would have to be confirmed that some acceptable form of attachment is possible and it appears that all the cabling would have to be surface run.  Your expectations for the system output and quality would also have to be verified.  However, that is my initial thought.
 
Low frequency output and especially even coverage at low frequencies would be a potential challenge.  You might be able to integrate small subs into the arrays noted above and if the ceiling is substantial structurally then the proximity to the surface would provide some 'loading' at low frequencies and thus greater low frequency output, perhaps allowing the use of smaller subs.
 
Now for the bad news.  Adding acoustical treatments and the type of system noted might be difficult within your budget.  It is not just a factor of the equipment itself but also of the installation of that equipment in the existing space, which appears as though it may be more labor and hardware intensive than it might be for many other spaces.  There are seemingly minor issues such as cabling paths and the ceiling structure that could have a significant impact on what is involved in the physical installation or feasible in general.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 09:55:35 pm by Brad Weber »
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2011, 09:28:38 am »

Well in that part of the sanctuary the ceiling is about 12 feet high. We have steps that lead to the pulpit/choir area which will go up 3 feet, and another 1 foot step into the choir area.

John....

One of the prime concerns would be putting the sound ON the listeners and keeping it OFF reflective surfaces such as the walls and ceiling.  Due to the size and shape of your room you are fairly constrained in what you can do.  Mounting on walls will mean that a good percentage of your sound will immediately start reflecting into the room causing clarity issues.  So a permanent mount doesn't look optimal.  Somewhere above the ceiling there will be something to which you can anchor fly points.  Or not......

As to the choir mics there is one overriding  principle:

Loudest sound at the mic wins.

It doesn't matter what you use or how much you spend.  If the sound from the band/sound system etc is louder than the voices at the mic.......well, you get the picture.  It is not unusual to use multiple hand held mics with 3-4 voices/mic in extreme situations.

Good luck 

Edit:

Brads post came in while I was typing.  Listen carefully to him.  He's a top man. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 09:30:34 am by dick rees »
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2011, 11:45:45 am »

Quote
Well in that part of the sanctuary the ceiling is about 12 feet high. We have steps that lead to the pulpit/choir area which will go up 3 feet, and another 1 foot step into the choir area.

What stops you from putting the speakers on a shelf that is attached to the wall behind them, right up against the ceiling?
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John Rosborough

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2011, 02:27:31 pm »

First let me say to Brad and Dick, thank you for your time, experience, and advice, I trully appreciate them.

Brad I will digest your post!

I will respond with any further questions most likely in a day or two. You gave me a lot of issues to ponder.

Once again thank you; you guys are aewsome. But let me go back to the drawing board.

God Bless and Take Care!!!
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Tom Young

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2011, 05:48:33 pm »

As to the choir mics there is one overriding  principle:

Loudest sound at the mic wins.

Good point.

I will add that the choir microphones (no matter how they are deployed) are also going to pick up noise from the fan above the choir/platform. It is likely that the only thing that can be done about this is to turn off the fan or reduce the fan speed to the point where the air it is moving is not picked up from these mic's.

Dick and Brad have covered everything else very well.
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Tom Young
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2011, 09:56:20 pm »

I just LOVE ceiling fans and what they do to sound in a room.  Multiple doppler-shifters make me go bonkers to say nothing about the HF chatter they induce.  As a musician I would pass on any restaurants wanting to hire music if they couldn't turn off the ceiling fans near where I was playing. 
If you must have them on while using the sound system, please consider putting them on the lowest possible speed.

I agree with Brad about a centered speaker.  But this means you will have to find a way to fly it.  Given that somewhere up there there is enough of a structure to hold up the roof there must be enough of a structure to support one or two lighter weight cabinets.  It's worth checking out as that is the best option for getting the sound where you want it.  And if you need to have a second (delay) speaker out in the room you will be able to then put it in line with the main speaker. 
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Tim Padrick

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2011, 11:25:35 pm »

Thanks Tim, I will add the MixWiz to my planning. BTW are you currently using the Presonus? If so, what venue, church, clubs, etc?

I've mixed club gigs on the Presonus, and it's nice to have everything close at hand (as opposed to a MixWiz or GL and a rack of goodies).  But with analog, you can do two things at once, so it's a tossup.  If the show is FX intensive, analog is handy.  But if it's a regular song list, setups can be saved as scenes on a digital console.  But the Presonus goes silent for a few seconds during scene changes, and you then have to do a 'fader locate', neither of which is good.
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2011, 09:32:45 am »

Thanks Tim, I will add the MixWiz to my planning. BTW are you currently using the Presonus? If so, what venue, church, clubs, etc?

I've mixed club gigs on the Presonus, and it's nice to have everything close at hand (as opposed to a MixWiz or GL and a rack of goodies).  But with analog, you can do two things at once, so it's a tossup.  If the show is FX intensive, analog is handy.  But if it's a regular song list, setups can be saved as scenes on a digital console.  But the Presonus goes silent for a few seconds during scene changes, and you then have to do a 'fader locate', neither of which is good.

If you want the digital effects of the Presonus and you want instant scene changes and motorized faders AND you have a computer nerd in your church you might look at building a 16 ch system based on the Software Audio Console system.  It would give you all of the above for about 2 to 3K

Frank
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Scott Hofmann

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2011, 03:01:52 pm »

First let me say to Brad and Dick, thank you for your time, experience, and advice, I trully appreciate them.

Brad I will digest your post!

I will respond with any further questions most likely in a day or two. You gave me a lot of issues to ponder.

Once again thank you; you guys are aewsome. But let me go back to the drawing board.

God Bless and Take Care!!!

Just posing an idea here....since it is a fairly small and confined space, wouldn't something like the Bose MA12 column array work well mounted to the side walls at the front? If not Bose, than similar but larger footprint SLS or Community columns? This would certainly solve the question of equal volume front to rear. Subwoofers of course can be added. 
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Scott Hofmann

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2011, 03:01:52 pm »


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