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Author Topic: Complaints about the loudness  (Read 6005 times)

George S Dougherty

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2010, 03:45:36 pm »

Adam Foster wrote on Sat, 16 January 2010 16:48


As far as the line array the more I think about it the more I don't like the idea of them in that building. However I do need to get the speakers in the air in a cluster as some of you stated. I just don't know what type of speakers to turn to.  Any suggestions on speakers would be great.


Just because the cluster arrangement is the way it's often done doesn't mean that it's the best way to do things.  I've yet to hear a center cluster that provided as even, non-comb filtered, coverage as an LCR setup.  That's my preference at least.
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George S Dougherty

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2010, 03:57:26 pm »

Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 12:23

Adam....

So the actual level is considerably lower than your original estimate......at least on the measurement day.  I usually take measurements A weighted/slow and that would read a tad less than the C scale.  I think you'll find that 86 dBA/slow will be acceptable to most folks in the front row.

Your mix position is not the best, but still not the worst if you're out in the open and not in a recessed space.  You can certainly try some treatment on the walls behind and to either side of you.  But as long as you're going into a renovation, why not just consider working the accoustic treatment into the job?

I'd also look at some smaller speakers and make sure that the pattern is narrow enought to keep the sound off the walls and ceiling.  There are angle tilters available for stand mounted speakers.  If you want to fly the speakers, please use a certified/bonded/insured install outfit.  DIY is just not an option here.  Also, if you use such an outfit they'll be a resource for recommending speaker type/configuration and install them at the proper angle for best coverage.

Good luck.


+1  Depending on the low frequency content, he may be almost there.  A reading I took this weekend was about 96db C-weighted and 85db A-weighted.  I run a good even mix with 3 guitars, bass and electronic drums/percussion.  I like a good amount of oomph on the low-end.  My bassist and drummer like it too since the subs are closer to them than me. Twisted Evil

Adam, here's a thought.  What, if anything, has been done to EQ the mains?  The JBL SRX's are pretty good out of the box, but I've always found their default sound to favor the mids and lows over the high frequencies.  If you're notching things for feedback with an EQ, that may also be impacting clarity depending on the width of the notches.
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2010, 06:13:11 pm »

Reading all this, I have to ask does the room have accoustic panels on the walls?  You said you had cinderblock walls, but I don't recall a mention of accoustic panels.  Putting some in will help with clarity and should be cheaper and easier than reworking your system.
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George S Dougherty

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2010, 06:22:06 pm »

Taylor Phillips wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 18:13

Reading all this, I have to ask does the room have accoustic panels on the walls?  You said you had cinderblock walls, but I don't recall a mention of accoustic panels.  Putting some in will help with clarity and should be cheaper and easier than reworking your system.


There's no treatment.  I'm curious about EQ at the moment.  Up close at lower volumes he should have good clarity even without room treatment.  There are so many possibilities here.  I helped a church last week create a new system EQ.  No clue how they got the old one, but it was all jacked up and nowhere near flat or fletcher munson tweaked.  It was locked away in a cabinet where people couldn't get to it (supposedly).  Post EQ, we had much more even response and significantly better clarity, even with the feedback notching.
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Dick Rees

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2010, 06:51:15 pm »

George & friends.....

We also do not know what comprises the system other than the speakers.  We know that the mix position is at the rear wall, but not what is there for equipment.  It would help to know what is there to be used or what may need or provide adjustments.  
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Brad Weber

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2010, 12:15:30 am »

George S Dougherty wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 15:45

Adam Foster wrote on Sat, 16 January 2010 16:48


As far as the line array the more I think about it the more I don't like the idea of them in that building. However I do need to get the speakers in the air in a cluster as some of you stated. I just don't know what type of speakers to turn to.  Any suggestions on speakers would be great.


Just because the cluster arrangement is the way it's often done doesn't mean that it's the best way to do things.  I've yet to hear a center cluster that provided as even, non-comb filtered, coverage as an LCR setup.  That's my preference at least.

I am a big fan of LCR systems but I don't understand this.  LCR systems commonly consist of left, center and right arrays/clusters with each covering the entire listener area.  Thus the center component of an LCR system is often essentially the same as what you would provide for a mono center array/cluster.  In addition, typically many vocals would end up in the center array only.  So for many vocal sources or anything panned center, there doesn't seem to be much difference between a mono center cluster and an LCR system.   At the same time, the possibility of the same signal being sent to multiple arrays in an LCR system would seem to increase the likelihood of interaction and combfiltering between the multiple sources compared to a mono center cluster.  Perhaps you mean LCR in a different sense.
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Brad Weber
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George S Dougherty

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2010, 01:00:12 am »

Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 00:15

George S Dougherty wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 15:45

Adam Foster wrote on Sat, 16 January 2010 16:48


As far as the line array the more I think about it the more I don't like the idea of them in that building. However I do need to get the speakers in the air in a cluster as some of you stated. I just don't know what type of speakers to turn to.  Any suggestions on speakers would be great.


Just because the cluster arrangement is the way it's often done doesn't mean that it's the best way to do things.  I've yet to hear a center cluster that provided as even, non-comb filtered, coverage as an LCR setup.  That's my preference at least.

I am a big fan of LCR systems but I don't understand this.  LCR systems commonly consist of left, center and right arrays/clusters with each covering the entire listener area.  Thus the center component of an LCR system is often essentially the same as what you would provide for a mono center array/cluster.  In addition, typically many vocals would end up in the center array only.  So for many vocal sources or anything panned center, there doesn't seem to be much difference between a mono center cluster and an LCR system.   At the same time, the possibility of the same signal being sent to multiple arrays in an LCR system would seem to increase the likelihood of interaction and combfiltering between the multiple sources compared to a mono center cluster.  Perhaps you mean LCR in a different sense.


I was talking more about a single box or small array per, rather than a trap cluster.  I can get away with it though since my mains have 120 degrees of horizontal dispersion.  Not all speakers would do well in that arrangement.  My sanctuary is wider than Adam's and with two mains hung from beams on the 1/3 and 2/3 points of the sanctuary I have even coverage from wall to wall and no noticable comb filtering effects.

You're right though, an LCR arrangement with trap clusters would probably only make things worse.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2010, 10:10:41 am »

George S Dougherty wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 01:00

I was talking more about a single box or small array per, rather than a trap cluster.  I can get away with it though since my mains have 120 degrees of horizontal dispersion.  Not all speakers would do well in that arrangement.  My sanctuary is wider than Adam's and with two mains hung from beams on the 1/3 and 2/3 points of the sanctuary I have even coverage from wall to wall and no noticable comb filtering effects.

You're right though, an LCR arrangement with trap clusters would probably only make things worse.

Thanks for the clarification.  Since both approaches require full coverage from the center element, if you use a single speaker as the center element in a well designed LCR system then you could probably use that same speaker as a mono center 'cluster'.  Or conversely, if a multi-box array is required for a mono center cluster then it is also likely required for the center element in an LCR system.

LCR systems are very nice when properly designed and implemented but people often overlook that in regards to the speaker system a properly designed LCR system is essentially combining a properly designed mono center cluster with a properly designed stereo (L/R) system.  It does not really change any single element, they each still require the same coverage, output, response, etc.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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Dick Rees

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2010, 10:29:48 am »

It's all well and good to discuss the merits of various delivery systems and configurations, but in the practical world of budgets I'd like to return to optimizing what the OP has.  Of course, I'd like more info on what he has besides speakers, but if I was going to recommend optimizing what he has I'd say to turn the speakers in and fire them across each other.  They're 75 degree boxes and in such a space I'd prefer 60 degree boxes at the widest.  As to any comb filtering inherent in crossing the patterns, I'll take that any day as the price for keeping the sound off the walls....... Smile
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George S Dougherty

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Re: Complaints about the loudness
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2010, 10:50:50 am »

Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 10:10

George S Dougherty wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 01:00

I was talking more about a single box or small array per, rather than a trap cluster.  I can get away with it though since my mains have 120 degrees of horizontal dispersion.  Not all speakers would do well in that arrangement.  My sanctuary is wider than Adam's and with two mains hung from beams on the 1/3 and 2/3 points of the sanctuary I have even coverage from wall to wall and no noticable comb filtering effects.

You're right though, an LCR arrangement with trap clusters would probably only make things worse.

Thanks for the clarification.  Since both approaches require full coverage from the center element, if you use a single speaker as the center element in a well designed LCR system then you could probably use that same speaker as a mono center 'cluster'.  Or conversely, if a multi-box array is required for a mono center cluster then it is also likely required for the center element in an LCR system.

LCR systems are very nice when properly designed and implemented but people often overlook that in regards to the speaker system a properly designed LCR system is essentially combining a properly designed mono center cluster with a properly designed stereo (L/R) system.  It does not really change any single element, they each still require the same coverage, output, response, etc.


Much agreed.  Too many people buy church sound systems with no clue what they're doing.  I've helped a number of churches with completely inappropriate gear purchased because "jbl's sound great" or "Mackie makes teh mostest awesomest of mixorz!".  My ministry is to try and help those churches with little to no budget and an unwillingness or inability to hire in a consultant to properly design a system for them.  Of course, I've also seen designed systems installed by people with little apparent idea of what they're doing.  They can hook up a mixer to an eq to an amp to a speaker and make adjustments, so they become a consultant and sell churches with the pockets the toys they wish they had without much regard for all the questions we've been over here.

Sounds like there are some good and knowledgeable people here doing good work for the Kingdom.  Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy Smile
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