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[Chris Harwood]

I'm finding a quite a couple things amazing with this thread.

1. the technology is pretty darn good using decent triggers and good software, but the Roland V sets keep coming up as the bar level.  I really don't think that's the case anymore.  I think 3rd party software programs have surpassed the sampled Roland sounds.

2. Why do people/drummers insist about having "real" drums.  Aren't sampled drums just as "real"?  Why emulate? God has given you abilities to go in new directions, and ya know, they probably will be better.   Treat electronic drums for what they are, and learn some things with them, that you could NEVER do on a acoustic set (3 snares at once... switch kits for different songs, etc, etc, etc.....).
Do you hear this rant with the keyboard player getting piano and organ sounds?   oh yeah...weighted keys..big deal.

3. A lot of pride too going on.  People putting themselves first.  I more than certainly understand being "comfortable" on an instrument, but have any of these drummers REALLY taken these issues into their own prayer closet?  On appearances, most of the time it appears not.

[Matthias Heitzer]

I'm not a drummer but I prefer acoustic kits.
In small rooms their volume can be a problem, but good acoustic drums do not only sound better, their sound also spreads more naturally in the room. Hard to describe this, but drums interact with the room a lot, the sound of e-drums that just comes out of some speakers is and sounds artificial.
As long as stage volume is a problem, acoustic kits sound better.

If the drumkit is in some kind of fish tank, these advantages are reduced to almost nothing, so it's only the drummers feeling that is improved.

some words about the V-drums:
The sounds of the V-drums might not be the best anymore, but they brought forth some good improvements which secure their market position.(mesheads for example)
Forthermore the TD20 is the only drum module I can take serious.
How do you want to mix a drum set with less then 8 channels?
I haven't found another electronic kit that was made for the stage yet.

[John Fiorello]

Chris Harwood wrote on Thu, 02 July 2009 23:01

2. Why do people/drummers insist about having "real" drums.  Aren't sampled drums just as "real"?

Nope



JF

[Keith Shannon]

Chris Harwood wrote on Thu, 02 July 2009 23:01

I'm finding a quite a couple things amazing with this thread. 1. the technology is pretty darn good using decent triggers and good software, but the Roland V sets keep coming up as the bar level.  I really don't think that's the case anymore.  I think 3rd party software programs have surpassed the sampled Roland sounds. 2. Why do people/drummers insist about having "real" drums.  Aren't sampled drums just as "real"?  Why emulate? God has given you abilities to go in new directions, and ya know, they probably will be better.   Treat electronic drums for what they are, and learn some things with them, that you could NEVER do on a acoustic set (3 snares at once... switch kits for different songs, etc, etc, etc.....). Do you hear this rant with the keyboard player getting piano and organ sounds?   oh yeah...weighted keys..big deal. 3. A lot of pride too going on.  People putting themselves first.  I more than certainly understand being "comfortable" on an instrument, but have any of these drummers REALLY taken these issues into their own prayer closet?  On appearances, most of the time it appears not.

There are some good questions asked here; however, I don't think my answers are what you expected when you asked:

1. First, sampling quality is actually secondary to the simple fact that the sound is not produced directly by striking the instrument. Instead, striking the instrument registers a "hit" of some arbitrary force, which is gauged and used to generate a sampled sound at a given velocity. As I have said before, this works just fine if your style is simply to hit drums or cymbals with a standard rock stick. However, a plethora of sounds can be produced from a drum kit by striking in unconventional ways. These produce different waveforms naturally, waveforms that an E-drum has to reproduce through explicit sampling.

2. No. Sampled drums are not "just as real". Yes, I do hear the same complaint from keyboard players. The reason is the same, and very simple; recording a drum kit and playing those sounds back through an amplifier and speaker will never exactly match the sound of the real thing played live. First, there are inherent limitations to sampling. In order for a MIDI-interface instrument to react "accurately" to an input at a set velocity, it must be sampled at that exact velocity. That means that every note of the instrument (including every drum of a set) must be sampled 128 times with infinitesimally-incremental increases in attack velocity. What usually happens is they record every note about 4 or 5 times and blend them together using increases in volume. This is not the same.

3. This isn't a point of pride. Why on earth would I be more proud of playing on the "real thing" when the "substitute" is more expensive? The issue is, does an E-drum set allow me to do what I want to do musically? If the answer is yes, which it would be for many people, then go for it and rid yourself of the frustration of having to compensate with stage volume for the rest of the band. However, for many other people, an E-drum set will limit what the performer can do on the kit. If that's the case, then it's worth using "traditional" (harder/more expensive) methods to reduce volume.

[Arnold B. Krueger]

[quote title=Keith Shannon wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 19:32

1. First, sampling quality is actually secondary to the simple fact that the sound is not produced directly by striking the instrument. Instead, striking the instrument registers a "hit" of some arbitrary force, which is gauged and used to generate a sampled sound at a given velocity. As I have said before, this works just fine if your style is simply to hit drums or cymbals with a standard rock stick. However, a plethora of sounds can be produced from a drum kit by striking in unconventional ways. These produce different waveforms naturally, waveforms that an E-drum has to reproduce through explicit sampling.
[/quote]

This might be important if:

(1) Every (or even just the vast majority) of churches had expert drummers that actually played at this level of expertise.

(2) Every (or even just the vast majority) of churches  church had a venue where playing at this level was audible any place but in the near vicinity of the drummer.

(3) Souls were only saved by totally excellent drumming.

(4) The basic problem of acoustic drums, which is that they are geneally inherently louder than any other musical voice on stage, wasn't there.

Quote:

2. No. Sampled drums are not "just as real". Yes, I do hear the same complaint from keyboard players. The reason is the same, and very simple; recording a drum kit and playing those sounds back through an amplifier and speaker will never exactly match the sound of the real thing played live. First, there are inherent limitations to sampling. In order for a MIDI-interface instrument to react "accurately" to an input at a set velocity, it must be sampled at that exact velocity. That means that every note of the instrument (including every drum of a set) must be sampled 128 times with infinitesimally-incremental increases in attack velocity. What usually happens is they record every note about 4 or 5 times and blend them together using increases in volume. This is not the same.

So now synthesized keyboards aren't worthy tools for leading people in worship, either? Good thing we have both acoustic and electronic keyboards at our church, I guess.

I don't see any competition between acoustic pianos and electronic keyboards. To me they are as different as French Horns and Cellos. I'm of the opinion that an above-average worship can benefit from both, but if space, talent, and money are an issue, the effort is usually far better spent on the keyboard.

Quote:

3. This isn't a point of pride.

You had me fooled!

Quote:

Why on earth would I be more proud of playing on the "real thing" when the "substitute" is more expensive?

Except that isn't a general rule. It is very easy to spend as much on a drum shield as a mid-riced electronic drum kit. I've seen it done in a number of churches in this area.

It is easy enough to spend the price of a mid-priced electronic drum kit on the microphones, stands, mixing channels, amps and speakers, EFX etc, to route a drum kit through a sound system or record it, particularly in large venues.

Besides, you also went off on keyboards, and the economics there are very clear - grand pianos cost a ton more than even high priced synths, and are more costly to maintain.

Quote:

The issue is, does an E-drum set allow me to do what I want to do musically?

No, the question is what does an E-drum kit do for the effectiveness of worship (which I later define) at the average church?  

The percentage of people who go to mega-churches that have the resources for the effective use of acoustic drums is small compared the vast number people who are served by average churches. Remember, the average church has about 150 attendees every weekend.

Quote:

If the answer is yes, which it would be for many people, then go for it and rid yourself of the frustration of having to compensate with stage volume for the rest of the band.

You know I think its great that you have all this talent and need to send out a highly nuanced message from your drum kit. Seriously.

But, I think you need to answer the fundamental question in worship, which is how is what I'm doing right now bringing people closer to God and transforming people's lives.

I've never heard a testimony from someone who was brought to the Lord by highly nuanced drumming, or singing, or mixing, or room acoustics, or the like. Maybe you can point me to such a testimony on the web...

I'm still reminded of going to a church band festival and listening to about 30 church worship bands, most probably at least better than average. Almost every one was composed of a multitude of musicians who were to my ears audibly and visibly straining to be heard over a too-loud set of acoustic drums.

I'm of the opinion that the best we can do in worship is *not* stand in the way or distract from *The Message*. We aren't *The Message*.

Quote:

However, for many other people, an E-drum set will limit what the performer can do on the kit.

In most churches, the quality of drumming is limited by the skills of the drummer, plain and simple.

The more relevant question is whether or not E-drums make it more difficult or easier for the average drummer to meet the needs of that church's worship leader and congregation.

Quote:

If that's the case, then it's worth using "traditional" (harder/more expensive) methods to reduce volume.

There's plenty of evidence that E-drums are an effective means for the average drummer to meet the needs of the average church.

[Ryan Fluharty]

Quote:

In most churches, the quality of drumming is limited by the skills of the drummer, plain and simple. The more relevant question is whether or not E-drums make it more difficult or easier for the average drummer to meet the needs of that church's worship leader and congregation.

That's in my opinion the main reason churches use e-drums.

I truly believe that in 95% of cases either acoustic drums or e-drums will work.  I play drums in a acoustically terrible chruch with a substandard sound system.  We have a typical 5 piece kit with Zildjian cymbals.  One  5 ft sound shield with some foam behind the kit on a wall.  Our church only seats about 225 and we have about 75-100 people on a Sunday morning.  Can our kit get loud? Yes.  Is it played loud? No.  I have taken a concern into making the drums as quiet as possible so that the person at FOH can do his job more effectively.  I have purchased thinner cymbals and thinner sticks to use.  I still play heavy enough to make the kit sound good but have been told by my pastor that the music is blended very well.  FYI the drums are about 20 ft from the 1st row of seats.

I think drums in church come down to 2 main points: picking the right tools for the job and the attitude of the drummer.  If you have acoustic drums, its important to pick the right wood and metal for the job.  Just like you wouldn't mic a violin with a bass drum mic, you wouldn't want to use heavy cymbals and drum shells that project much in a smaller room setting.  Think of all the jazz trios that have toured through small clubs across the country.  They're drums are unshielded and still can blend in with only 2 other instruments.

That brings me to my second point, the attitude of the drummer.  A drummer must realize who he is playing for and the setting that he is playing in.  If he tries to be the star of the show and play loud, he will become the main distraction.  I read a while ago a good way to critique a worship team is to videotape them.  This would certainly help in telling a drummer that he is too loud.  Just have him watch the tape (given that you don't record of an external audio signal).

[Chris Harwood]

John Fiorello wrote on Thu, 16 July 2009 18:47

Chris Harwood wrote on Thu, 02 July 2009 23:01 2. Why do people/drummers insist about having "real" drums.  Aren't sampled drums just as "real"? Nope JF

I'm sorry John that you apparently missed the following sentences I wrote after the one you pulled out of context and answered.

I believe I then went on to say "Why emulate? God has given you abilities to go in new directions, and ya know, they probably will be better. Treat electronic drums for what they are, and learn some things with them, that you could NEVER do on a acoustic set (3 snares at once... switch kits for different songs, etc, etc, etc.....)."

In other words, electronic drums are just as real as the computer I used to type this message.  But it aint a typewriter either...but it doesn't mean my computer isn't real.

[Tony Williams]

I never knew a topic of acoustic vs. electronic drums would create such a heated political debate. Pick the right tool for the job. If you have average drummers who cant play soft, then get an electric kit. If your church has professional drummers who can not only play soft, but also capable of creating beautiful nuances, then by all means get an acoustic kit. Being a drummer and sound guy myself, I prefer an acoustic kit. Mostly because I can play at the desired level, and I can change stick types for different sounds, oh and I can actually make a real cymbal roll (something that electric kits have never done well).
FWIW: I have played on many electric kits, and the service has gone just fine with them. I have a preference for an acoustic kit, but never turn down the opportunity to play when I find out its an elec kit.
-T

[Lee Buckalew]

I'll comment on some of the drum issues later as I'm still thinking about it.
I can't let this pass:

Dan, We run our slate within Ableton 8 using Kontakt 3 with a good buffer count that gives us about 5.5ms of latency. It is unnoticeable... the M7CL has more latency then that.

I finished specing and testing a MIDI rig for a close friend of mine. He can now have great sounding keys, pads, drums, bass, synth, and vocoding processing all within a Thinkpad running Ableton and USB MIDI controllers. All multichannel audio outputs via motu interfaces with a total system latency of 7ms.
/QUOTE]

5.5ms latency is more than double the latency on an M7cl.  I have a hard time believing that musicians are not having some trouble with this much latency, especially the 7ms that you state later in your post.
In my experience most musicians begin having trouble with timing around the 4 -5ms mark.  Even before that point a mix that could be really tight sounding rythmically begins to feel sloppy.

Hmm, couldn't make the quotes work right.

His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

[Lee Buckalew]

Aaron,
Since your question asked about acoustically challenged rooms and then the thread devolved into a whole list of other things let's get back to your question.

It Depends.
If by acoustically challenged you mean very live then frequently a very good electronic kit or samples can be an excellent choice.  Realize that it takes a lot of work to get great sounds on an electronic kit.  You have to choose the shell, head, mic position, mic type, tuning, etc, etc. of the individual drums plus you have to set up the room the kit is in (within the electronics module, not your actual physical room).  All of these settings can be saved and recalled.  External cards are available for many kits.  
One problem with E-Drums is their flexibility, it tends to make drummers want to play with many different sounds and/or change things, when they do this they may not be appropriate for the song and it can lead to a lack of consistency.
One advantage for E-Drums is their flexibility as you can have different "kits" as it were for different song styles.  You can also set up different configurations for different drummers.

I prefer the sound of a great acoustic kit, tuned properly (which almost none in churches are) with a really good drummer.  That said if the room is very acoustically challenging and/or the drummer(s) never have the kit tuned well etc. then an electronic set can be a great option.

Let's also talk about micing the drums and shields.  Drum shields create large phase problems for micing, they can be worked around but it takes paying close attention to the angles of the various sections of the shield and where that makes the reflections go combined with mic placement.
Mics add to the cost of an acoustic kit.
A drum shield adds to the cost of an acoustic kit (if it's needed).
Mic choice and placement can vary for different styles.  (do you top and bottom mic the snare, how many mics on the kick, etc.)

Also, do you have a sound system that can reproduce acoustic drums that are miced?  Is the frequency response and transient capability up to the task, do you have good compressors for your drum channels, etc.
If using E-Drums then the sound system also has to be capable since it is handling everything with no acoustic help from the kit.

E-kits can be far more consistent from service to service.  My home church uses and acoustic kit.  It is stored in a trailer that, throughout the course of the year, varies in temperature from -15 degrees to well over 100 degrees.  It is then taken at least once a week into a temperature controlled room (gymnasium).  This means that it is never in proper tune.  This would be an excellent situation for an E-Kit.  The only way acoustic would be better in this situation would be if we had a professional drummer that could get the kit set and tuned (oh, and miced) in under 45 minutes since that is all the time we have from loading out of the trailer to starting a rehearsal.

Someone else said this in the posts but I'll reiterate.  Pick the right tool for the job.
I will also add, the tool has to fit for the user.  Just because you have a hammer and saw it doesn't necessarily mean that you are a carpenter, you may be a wood butcher.  Just because someone has "played drums" does not mean that they are a drummer.  Skill levels vary greatly and all factors have to be taken into account to select "the right tool for the job".

Enough rambling for now.

His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

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