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[Arnold B. Krueger]

Andrew Makinson wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 19:52

I also feel that electronic drums have a place.  The biggest question is will your drummer use them? Most of the drummers I know would prefer the cage/ drum room.

Before we obtained our Roland drums, I went to a church music festival.  IMO virtually every group using acoustic drums was straining to get their vocals to balance with the drums, while the natural vocal sound of the few groups that brought electronic drums was very pleasing.

I guess it *is* possible that God has called certain people to only play acoustical drums, but somehow that sounds strange to me.

[Dan Costello]

Andrew Makinson wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 14:52

Jason Lewis wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 11:07 decent electronic drums with a nice drum processor and acoustic cymbals.  Nice electronic drums sound great (especially the toms) and acoustic cymbals sound much better than the electric.  The combo together works very well for any size venue. To me that is pointless if you are trying to achieve level control.  If your cymbals are too loud then "the drums are too loud".

I agree. I don't think I've ever had an issue with the drums being too loud and the cymbals not. More than anything, it's the hi-hat that rips my head off.

-Dan.

[Dan Costello]

Arnold B. Krueger wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 16:05

Andrew Makinson wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 19:52   I also feel that electronic drums have a place.  The biggest question is will your drummer use them? Most of the drummers I know would prefer the cage/ drum room.   Before we obtained our Roland drums, I went to a church music festival.  IMO virtually every group using acoustic drums was straining to get their vocals to balance with the drums, while the natural vocal sound of the few groups that brought electronic drums was very pleasing.

If that's the case, then either the bands were lousy or the engineers were lousy. Or both.

-Dan.

[Kent Thompson]

As much as I like acoustic drums they have at times been a thorn in my side. In a several instances I have found myself wishing I was mixing electronic drums. I suppose if we had a fully enclosed and acoustically treated room for them I might feel different but, we currently only have a partial shield which I like and dislike at the same time for different reasons.

[Jason Lewis]

[quote title=Andrew Makinson wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 13:52]

Jason Lewis wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 11:07

decent electronic drums with a nice drum processor and acoustic cymbals.  Nice electronic drums sound great (especially the toms) and acoustic cymbals sound much better than the electric.  The combo together works very well for any size venue.

To me that is pointless if you are trying to achieve level control.  If your cymbals are too loud then "the drums are too loud".



I didn't say anything about level control.  That is not an issue in our venue's.  The sound quality of that combo works best for me and we usually mic the cymbals.  If your venue is too small to crash a cymbal then I would go with a straight electric set for full volume control.

[Brian Ehlers]

If acoustic drums are too loud, then the drummer is playing them too loud.  No different than if the guitarist turns his amp up to 11.

Years ago our drummer was a high schooler who liked to hit 'em hard.  We built a make-shift drum shield which (surprise, surprise) didn't work very good.  People complained about the drums.  (Part of this was the drummer's talent level.)

In more recent years, we are blessed to have a professional drummer in our congregation willing to join the praise team.  He can play any style, but his main gig is Jazz.  This is a perfect background.  He's got a great touch.  I get to make a great mix at a level appropriate for the music and service, and no one complains anymore.  Oh, and we don't use the shield.

[Mark Schneider]

I am both a drummer and experience in sound.  The Roland V-Drums feel just like (or close enough) playing on a realy drum kit.  The V-drums have tuneable heads, so you can make them as mushy or tight as you want in terms of feel.  The only oddity is the cymbals, but if you truly are concerned about overal sound quality (and you should be), then you can get over it.  The V-Drums are just as dynamic as real drums: you can lightly tap them or hit them hard, and those dynamics will come thru exactly as real drums (assuming you have the dynamic settings adjusted for that in the processor).

I grew up playin accoustic kits, and I just don't buy those that say electronic kits don't feel the same.  I do accept that many electronit kits aren't the same, but try the V-Drums and if you can't play on those, something is wrong.  I was hesitant about them at first, but now love them.  You get so many more sounds out of it, you can essentially change to a completely different drum kit for each song.  And the volume control you get out of them is so much contralable than any accoustic kit can ever be.

The nice thing about the V-Drums, is that you can turn the output volume down, and hit the kit hard, so you don't have to hold back when volume is an issue.  I never enjoyed having to do that, but being a drummer in a church always forced that to happen.  With the V-Drums, you eliminate having to do that.

The downside of them, is that to truly get really nice sounds, that are comparable to an accoustic set, you have to spend ALOT of time going thru each individual setting on each drum preset.  There are hundreds of parameters, and the "pre-intalled" presets just don't cut it.  You have to go make your own, and you really do have to be a drummer/sound-guy combination to get the most out of the V-Drums.  Once you are comfortable with using the brain of the kit, it takes at least a good half hour to really get a start on making a natrural sounding kit on the V-Drums.

[Chris Harwood]

I think a product you're not really seeing much currently, but I think will make some of the stuff like the Roland drums (mainly their sounds) a bit obsolete is using separately purchased computer software with triggers.  Granted, the Rolands, etc can still be the trigger source, but check out Toontrack's Superior 2.  It is geared (besides for recording) to be used live and I think sounds incredible.  I use it in my studio and I'd never get as good a sound on a mic'd kit (blasphemy ya say!!!).  If you can sit thru the videos, (Pat Thrall is something to be desired...but seems to know his stuff), I think many might agree with what I am saying.  Especially check the S2.0 video demo and realize that that's software you are hearing with a live drummer.

http://www.toontrack.com/s20.asp

btw, the new expansion sounds for Superior are out and sound incredible.  Not to mention the 'tweak-a-bility' you get with this product.

Personally, I think this is the bee's knees.  Simply wonderful product.  

[Nathan Tisdale]

Mark Schneider wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 18:57

The nice thing about the V-Drums, is that you can turn the output volume down, and hit the kit hard, so you don't have to hold back when volume is an issue.  I never enjoyed having to do that, but being a drummer in a church always forced that to happen.  With the V-Drums, you eliminate having to do that.

Right on. If I had to hold back I would, but personally I would be able to worship a lot more If I had the opportunity to have a complete shield or E-drums because when I play kit I worship ALOT. (jumping off of throne on build ups, putting a lot of emotion and motion in my playing and most of the time I just can't hold myself back from smacking a crash on a down beat with my hands 3ft in the air.) So for a small sanctuary I would definitely do more harm than good.


(FYI, I play on a DW 4 piece with 24" Kick, 12"Tom1, 16"FLTom, 14" Snare, [2]16" Medium/Thin Crash, [1]20"Crash Ride, 14" Hats - Behind a 6 panel Clearsonic shield w/ Aviom)

[Jon-Paul Bullard]

If the world were a perfect place and our drummers all outstanding with perfect control and attitudes to match, then this discussion would be moot - a good quality, well-tuned, well-mic'ed acoustic kit wins hands down everytime.

However, in my experience, the drummers with great attitudes that will sacrifice some feel for a suitable acoustic level and have the technical ability to do so are few and far between.

I've mixed foh in churches of 2000+, 800+, 400+ and 150+, and in virtually every situation other than the 2000+, the drummer has set the FOH level - and lets not think it's just snare and toms - those crashes are the things that often make the most people cringe. (BTW, I was also a drummer for the 400+)

For me the argument is "what allows us to create the best possible worship experience for the congregation". Everything hinges on and needs to be subservient to this criteria.

I can guarantee you that the majority of non-music team people will never say - "That electronic snare just doesn't sound real..", or "the drummer just doesn't have the same feel on that electric kit...",  They'll be saying - "Man, I really enjoyed the worship this morning, for the first time since I can remember, the drums weren't overpowering and I could really worship"

If screening will do, then screen, but if it's still too loud, everyone needs to put themselves aside and put the congregation first.

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