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Author Topic: Help!!!!  (Read 3934 times)

Byron Walker

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Help!!!!
« on: April 19, 2011, 10:51:37 am »

Please Help.  1st I am completely new at this, so keep it simple please.  Backstory - My church has sound system that was setup at least 12 yrs ago.  The people who were around then are not here now.  People have just been guessing at what they are doing for a while. Now I have to figure it all out.  Problem - It seems all the channels are outputting at max regardless of volume or gain on the individual channel.  This is a real problem when trying to use both the CD player and the Microphones at the same time.

Please Help.
Byron
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:49:27 am by Byron Walker »
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Matthias Heitzer

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2011, 12:28:11 pm »

It's hard to guess what the problem is when we have no further details.

An easy way to explain us your setup would be some pictures, from the surface of the mixer and it's connectors.
Try to find out where the cables from and to the mixer are ending.

Having no Control over a Signal could happen if you plug it into a post-fade insert with balanced TRS connectors or if the console has inserts with Tip=Return.  But a mic signal would be very quiet then.....
Let me say that this is rather uncommon.

Some fader defects can cause similar behaviour, but this is just blind guessing unless we have more details.


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Byron Walker

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 01:44:37 pm »

the mics are very quiet.  with just the CD player the master volume is just barely up at all and is loud.  with just the mics the master volume has to be about 2/3 of the way.
I will see if i can get pics tonight.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 02:13:25 pm »

the mics are very quiet.  with just the CD player the master volume is just barely up at all and is loud.  with just the mics the master volume has to be about 2/3 of the way.
I will see if i can get pics tonight.

How is the CD player connected into the board?  What is the board? 

Basically, everything that is input into the mixer (board) should have some kind of adjustment to achieve the proper signal level.  On the individual channels it would be the channel gain, usually located at the top of each channel strip.  There should also be some way of metering the input "gain" so it can be properly set.  This may differ depending on the quality/sophistication of the unit. 

Playback devices may often be routed directly to the mains via a "2-track" pair of RCA inputs and may or may not have an input gain adjustment.

So what you're looking at here is most likely how to get both the mic and playback input levels to be the same.  For us to tell you that we'd need to know what mixing console you are using.

DR 
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 03:08:31 pm »

More information would be a big help but let,s look at some general stuff.

Microphones should plug into your board in jacks labeled something like Mic or Microphone.  CD player should plug into a jack labeled "Line")

There are a number of volume controls on most mixers.  At the top of the mixer there should be one or two controls labeled gain. one may be mic gain and one Line gain, or there may be just one control.

Then there is the main control for that channel (usually a fader or a knob closest to you.  Next is the main fader.

Also if you are using a boom box type of CD player, there will be a volume control on the player it self.

SO......

First turn down the CD player it self,
Next make sure your CD player is not plugged into the microphone jack.
Next turn down the gain control for the CD player near the top of your board.

Frank

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Byron Walker

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 04:41:05 pm »

Thanks everyone.  The mixer is a Peavey 2002-12 RQ, mikes come into channels 1-8 from the snake, tape deck into channels 9-10 on the line in, CD player on 11-12 on the line in.  The gain has no effect on any channel, the volume fader has no effect on any channel.  the on thing that is controlling anything seems to be the main fader
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2011, 05:00:29 pm »

Thanks everyone.  The mixer is a Peavey 2002-12 RQ, mikes come into channels 1-8 from the snake, tape deck into channels 9-10 on the line in, CD player on 11-12 on the line in.  The gain has no effect on any channel, the volume fader has no effect on any channel.  the on thing that is controlling anything seems to be the main fader


OK...

Since you have a limited amount of experience here there will be a good bit of guesswork for a while until we reach a balance of information from you and a growing understanding on your part regarding system configuration.  here goes.....

A good guess (given your describing faders not affecting the send levels) would be that the output from the mixer to the system is being taken from a monitor send rather than the mains send.

Your serve........
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Aiden Garrett

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2011, 05:32:55 pm »

Do you have a higher resolution picture? It's very hard to tell how it is setup. A brief look suggests that it's not setup properly - for example, the pan controls (above each channel's fader) are set to hard left. This tends to be avoided.

Aiden
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Byron Walker

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 05:36:52 pm »

Sorry, that is a generic picture not the actual setup.  I will check it out tonight and see if what has been said so far helps and if not try and get some pics.
Thanks again for your help
Byron
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Brad Weber

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 05:47:58 pm »

Here's the manual for your mixer, http://www.peavey.com/media/pdf/manuals/80304341.pdf.  Based on that, each channel has an XLR microphone input and a 1/4" TRS balanced line input, so it sounds like you may have them going to the correct inputs.
 
That is a pretty simple mixer with virtually no switches, button or other selections that would allow the master faders to have an effect on the signal level and not the channel gain controls or faders.  For example, if the house signal was coming from the monitor sends then the individual channel gain controls should still have an effect on the level while the master faders would not.  Since the 'Gain' control is the very first thing all of the 12 inputs hits then something seems seriously wrong if the master volume faders vary the signal but neither the gain knob or fader seem to have an effect for any of the inputs.

A recommendation on a more general level is to see if you can find someone from another local church that has relevant experience and knowedge that could stop by for a little bit.  A few minutes of such time can often be invaluable.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 06:32:41 pm »

Sorry, that is a generic picture not the actual setup.  I will check it out tonight and see if what has been said so far helps and if not try and get some pics.
Thanks again for your help
Byron

Is there any evidence or record of anyone spilling a liquid on the board?????

And +1 on finding another church tech in you neighborhood to help you go through things.  On site is better than on (web)site.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 11:47:36 pm »

Thanks everyone.  The mixer is a Peavey 2002-12 RQ, mikes come into channels 1-8 from the snake, tape deck into channels 9-10 on the line in, CD player on 11-12 on the line in.  The gain has no effect on any channel, the volume fader has no effect on any channel.  the on thing that is controlling anything seems to be the main fader

If you can post a picture with everything connected, and describe what's connected where as far as outputs (where is the cord to the amplifier plugged in?) that would be a big help.

Another question: with all the faders & knobs in their usual position and the room quiet, do you get any noticeable hiss, hum, or noise coming out of the speakers?

Since your mixer doesn't have the ability to meter the inputs on each channel individually -- all there is is a "CLIP" LED -- it's a bit more difficult to adjust the gain, but it can be done. Here's a quick guide to setting gain structure.
  • Set all of the gain, fader, and volume controls all the way down. Also turn down any input gain on the amplifier.
  • Zero out the EQ section on each channel.
  • Playing each source one at a time at the loudest it's likely to be used, adjust the gain (the top knob on each channel strip) until the CLIP LED just begins to flicker. Note that nothing should be coming out of the speakers at this point. If it does, either you didn't do step 1 or something else is seriously wrong. [Start with the CD, then go to the tape, then each mic in turn.]
  • Start playing a CD.
  • Adjust the faders for the CD to the zero mark -- about 3/4 of the way up.
  • Adjust the LEFT and RIGHT master volume faders to about the zero mark. You should see the meter lights begin to flash to the music.
  • Bring up the input gain controls on the amp until the music is just a little louder than you like.
  • Stop the CD. Play the tape and adjust the faders for the tape until the volume is about the same as what the CD was. It should land around the "zero" mark.
  • Stop the tape. Do the same for each microphone channel.
Hopefully, this will help you get your levels under control and approximately equal. Ideally, the faders in the same position should give the same volume for each channel. In the future, adjust the gain down only if the CLIP light comes on constantly (occasional flashing is OK) and up only if your fader is all the way up and you can't get enough volume. Mix with the faders, not with the gain.

This isn't a definitive guide on gain structure, just a guess based on incomplete information.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 12:16:47 am by Jonathan Johnson »
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Byron Walker

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2011, 10:13:09 am »

Update -  Thanks everyone got it fixed.  the output to the speakers was from the monitor sends not the mains.  Switched it out and everything works like it should.

Thanks again
Byron
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 10:28:05 am »

Update -  Thanks everyone got it fixed.  the output to the speakers was from the monitor sends not the mains.  Switched it out and everything works like it should.

Thanks again
Byron

Bingo!!!!!

Congratulations.  One possible reason for running the house from a pre-fader aux might be for recording.  I have one of my "user friendly" church systems set up this way.  The services are simple, the only thing in the house PA is the Pastors headset mic, a mic on the lectern and a spare for back up on the pulpit.  These are all set to optimum levels and remain unchanged from week to week.  If a service is to be recorded there are three "house" mics which pick up congregational singing and any other music in the service.  These three are fed only to the main bus (along with the speaking mics) and the main bus feeds a line mixer which then feeds the CD recorder and remote speakers in the kitchen, the fellowship hall and several other rooms.  This way the sound in the sanctuary is always the same, only what is needed and accessible to the Pastor or other celebrant simply by turning the system on (using a Furman sequenced power conditioner).  This way the recordist can mix the CD independent of the sound in the Sanctuary and provide a full mix to the remote areas. 

This works for simple, traditional services where you're not mixing music for the house and allows for the untrained users to succeed simply by turning  one button on and off.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 10:45:46 am by dick rees »
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Brad Weber

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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 11:01:26 am »

Update -  Thanks everyone got it fixed.  the output to the speakers was from the monitor sends not the mains.  Switched it out and everything works like it should.
Glad you got it figured out!  That definitely explains the channel faders not having an effect as the monitor sends are pre-fader, however at least based on the Owner's Manual it does not explain the channel gain controls not having any effect on the levels.
 
I once attended a church that had their mixer setup with the main outputs feeding a recorder and the 'record out' feeding the house.  There were no recording sources that did not also feed the house any apparent reason for this arrangement, it was simply how the company that installed the system had configured it and no one had ever questioned it.  One has to wonder how often such things happen.
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Re: Help!!!!
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 11:01:26 am »


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