ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7   Go Down

Author Topic: Digico SD8  (Read 16239 times)

Oran Burns

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
Re: Digico SD8-Console "sounds"
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2009, 05:45:38 pm »

Hey Ivan,
In the example that i listed above i swapped the soundcraft console for the M7, so the only thing that changed here was the board so i dont believe that there were other factors at play.
The "complaints" that i mentioned were from reputable Pro engineers who can mix and that i trust.
Getting a good sound is not the issue, anytime i have every used an M7 CL i got a "good sound".
Thats not to say that i like the sound of the board.
Which is a different matter altogether!!!!
Regards,
Oran
Logged
Oran Burns
Live Sound Coordinator
Grace Fellowship Church
www.gracefellowship.ie

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1484
Re: Digico SD8-Console "sounds"
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2009, 06:37:39 pm »

Oran Burns wrote on Thu, 01 January 2009 17:45

Hey Ivan,
In the example that i listed above i swapped the soundcraft console for the M7, so the only thing that changed here was the board so i dont believe that there were other factors at play.

That is exactly the point, not every console is the same so how it interfaces in the system is different, the console is part of a system and if you just swap consoles without accommodating these differences then you are likely not providing a fair comparison.  And comparing a M7CL with the other consoles you noted is sort of like comparing a Cobalt to a Corvette and surmising from the comparison that the Cobalt has unacceptable acceleration and handling, do you really think you should expect the same performance for a fraction of the price?
Logged
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
www.museav.com

Rob Warren

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
Re: Digico SD8-Console "sounds"
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2009, 10:21:45 pm »

Oran,

If it helps I can say I've recently demo'd the M7 and the
Venue Profile Mix rack systems.

The M7 was replacing a DDA Q2 Monitor board doing about 14 mixes
some stereo Ears and some wedge mixes.  
The M7 was way better sounding to me than the DDA.
It had so much more gain I really had to keep that in mind,
and back off the Head Amp on the M7.  
In that respect, I would say I had to keep in mind I did NOT have
to push this console at all.  It was different getting used to EQ'ing things but it was just something I had to hear and not see.
I wonder how hard your M7 was driven?  I really had to keep telling myself to keep the Head amp around -20dB on the input meters.
Actually I was looking more at -24dB but if it hit -18dB it still was going to be okay.  More than that though would have been way too much.  

the Profile Mix Rack was at FOH.  Replacing Midas XL-200. (a very tired One)  
It was a great improvement.  I really enjoyed working on this desk. The selling point for me was the onboard Pro-tools capabilities and being able to use the virtual soundcheck.
I see this as a priceless training tool for having the volunteers come over one evening or Saturday afternoon and they can mix the last couple of services on virtual soundcheck and not need to have the band or singers there.  
So when I was able to demo the unit and verify the sound was good and I liked the layout and work flow that was all I needed to say this is what we need at FOH.  Again with this console,
I really had to make sure my gain was down.  I didn't have to push this console much at all.  

hope this helps,  
Logged
Rob

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 963
Re: Digico SD8-Console "sounds"
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2009, 10:29:06 pm »

Another thing when "all you do is swap consoles" is there is no way you are going to get all the eq's/levels etc the same.

A tad bit more here + a smidgen less there x a couple hundred=a good bit of difference in the overall "tonality" of a console.

Very often the difference between a good mix and a great mix is a bunch of seemingly insignificant changes in eq and level.

I remember a long story at a nightmare gig where we had to move the entire rig (PA/monitor/lights etc)to an indoor venue due to weather and started the move about 1 hr AFTER the show was supposed to start Shocked .

The Headliner did the system setup (I was busy doing other things) and with the warmup bands (who I worked with all the time) never sounded better Very Happy .

When the headliner came on he did not touch the house eq or crossover and only did a few "little" tweaks here and there on the console.  When they started playing I said to myself "WOW who brought in the new PA system"  Mine doesn't sound that good Shocked .

Same PA, Same console, but with an operator who REALLY knew his stuff.  My hats off to him.  He was from the PA area (I think) and was known as "Doc".  This was back in the late 80's.

Without a doubt the best live sound operator I have ever met.  His "sound" was in his ears/fingers- NOT the gear he used.
Logged
Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.

Karl P(eterson)

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 477
Re: Digico SD8-Console "sounds"
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2009, 12:15:06 am »

If you read through the OP's posts he is using phrases like clinical and harsh. My best guess would be that the m7 isn't providing the same distortion or coloration as he is used to on other consoles. This could be fixed with a simple "boutique" D/A or could (maybe should?) just be lived with.

In all seriousness to the OP, I have listened to a lot of consoles from boutique to bog-standard. While all consoles have a "voicing" of their own, all of them are workable and at the end of the day you will get used to what you have.

Maybe you should try the m7 again and this time do some experimenting with your gain stages and having a more open mind to the fact that it might be MORE pure than anything you have ever used before. Thus if you are looking for a certain sound you will have to create it yourself.

On the other hand, as I said earlier, I would get an LS9, or even an 01v if it meant I got the right PA and/or room acoustics work.

All these consoles sound just fine and they will all let you get the job done.

Karl P
Logged
Audio Team Leader - CCH

Oran Burns

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
Re: Digico SD8-Console "sounds"
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2009, 07:57:42 am »

Quote:

Without a doubt the best live sound operator I have ever met. His "sound" was in his ears/fingers- NOT the gear he used.

Sounds like me!!!
I bet this gentleman also had his favorite and least favorite consoles etc.
Its like food we all have our likes and dislikes, its just a matter of opinion.

Quote:

do you really think you should expect the same performance for a fraction of the price?

I had no expectations it was simply a demo but afterwards i preferred to go back to the Soundcraft analog with the analog outboard.

Quote:

fraction of the price?


When you factor in outboard the price difference is not that much (bout 4000 euros)

Quote:

I will quite literally mix on a Behringer if it means I can get a good PA.

The choice of PA and all the A/V/L infrastructure is what should be concerning you now, not the choice of mixers. A mixer should be an easy decision that can be made at any time based on need and budget. Any mixer from a reputable manufacturer will "sound" just fine and they should all work and perform equally well.



Im not so sure? I mean the console is the engineers work palette! its how one shapes their sound. I realize that the PA is very important but i think the console is very important as well.
Its got to be something that you like the sound of!
I use the M7 alot at different events etc and i can get a "result".
I just wouldn't put it in my church where sound quality is most important.

Going back to the original point?
How is the SD 8 sounding?
Anyone?

Regards,
Oran




Logged
Oran Burns
Live Sound Coordinator
Grace Fellowship Church
www.gracefellowship.ie

David Sumrall

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 268
Re: Digico SD8
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2009, 08:48:58 am »

Hey Oran,

I had a response yesterday but somehow that dot deleted before I sent it so I will try again.

I am still not sure exactly what the issue is you seem to be having.

But there is a world of difference going from a little analog desk to a full functioned digital desk with every setting and function behind a screen. There could be all kinds of things in the setup that are contributing to what you are not liking.

One problem could be gain structure for example.

Maybe something got over tweaked.

No offense intended but anyone can make any desk sound like crap!

My initial experience with the M7 was the opposite. I got a demo desk and used it for several events over a two week period. Those event included, Casting Crowns, Crystal Lewis, Russ Taff, Dallas Holmes, Aaron Shust etc. For the first gig I had very little time for pre production and had about two hours prior to sound check once we got an idea of what the input list might look like. The desk and system worked out great and again everyone was happy.


In regards to the M7 being an acceptable desk, it is!

In the states lots of churches have it and so do lots of touring christian artists.

Here at FBCO when we provide M7's for concerts we have never had one turned down, and those M7's come with a d&b PA system of some sort. When we do this it always sounds great and everyone is happy.

Now understand that my perspective comes from a person that mixes on and Midas Xl4 everyday in our big worship center. Of course the Xl4 sounds better, that is no suprise. But the M7 sounds fine too.

Would most people in our church know if either sounded better or why? Probably not.

Are there things that could be better on the M7? yepper, but you have to spend a lot more money to even try.

You mentioned the smaller soundcraft that you are looking to replace. Our church has gone on tours in Ireland several times over the past 7 years. Our experience is that Churches in Ireland are smaller then  mega churches in the states and that the systems and budgets are smaller too. We have seen a lot of Allen and Heath with most being GL and under and 32 inputs and under.

That being said an M7 might cost as much as what most of these little systems cost in total, not to mention the SD8.

I say that to get us to the point to keep some perspective.

When looking for a console.. what are the real specs needed?

what is the budget?

Is the the SD8 even in the budget??

If it is not then we and you could be wasting a lot of time even talking about it.

I have heard that the SD8 has a lot of stuff in it functionality wise for the price. But for the rooms I need digital consoles for it is either to big and over budget, or way too small. So knowing that, I don't waste my time worrying about it that much.

For me the next "acceptable" solution about the M7 would be the Venue Mix Rack that Rob mentioned. Yep it sounds better then the M7 and cost more too.  There are lots of Venue systems out there touring as well that sound great! Plus as Rob mentioned you get the plug in and pro tools options. I would have loved to have considered the Venue route but it was not in the budget even in the mix rack set up.

It may be too early for most here to give you a very good assessment on the SD8, as it is so new and there just are not that many of them out there yet.

In the words of the Rolling Stones....

"You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes, well you might find, that you get what you need"

Good luck!

David
Logged
David Sumrall
Audio Engineer
Gateway Church
Soutlake Texas
GatewayPeople.com

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 963
Re: Digico SD8-Console "sounds"
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2009, 09:08:27 am »

[quote title=Oran Burns wrote on Fri, 02 January 2009 07:57]
Quote:


Quote:

I will quite literally mix on a Behringer if it means I can get a good PA.

The choice of PA and all the A/V/L infrastructure is what should be concerning you now, not the choice of mixers. A mixer should be an easy decision that can be made at any time based on need and budget. Any mixer from a reputable manufacturer will "sound" just fine and they should all work and perform equally well.



Im not so sure? I mean the console is the engineers work palette! its how one shapes their sound. I realize that the PA is very important but i think the console is very important as well.
Its got to be something that you like the sound of!
I use the M7 alot at different events etc and i can get a "result".
I just wouldn't put it in my church where sound quality is most important.

Going back to the original point?
How is the SD 8 sounding?
Anyone?

Regards,
Oran



I agree totally with Karl.  Geting the PA/room right is waaaaayy ahead of NY very subtle console "sounds".

If the PA/room is "off" then lots of people will notice.  If the console "sound" is off, there will probably be only one person (the mix guy) who would even notice.  Is that putting importance where it needs to be?  I asume you already have the "best" mic available and all your musicians play only top of the line instruments-because those are the "paints" that a true artist uses.

If you are looking for people to tell you how a particular console "sounds" on the internet, that is going to be wrought with all sorts of different opinions.  As you have already seen.

Maybe YOU need to go listen to one yourself to make up YOUR mind.

Logged
Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.

Jeff Ekstrand

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 759
Re: Digico SD8
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2009, 09:24:18 am »

I'll put in another note in favor of the M7. Of course, if you're already set against it, then I don't expect anything.

I just had a national touring band come in the other day, Seventh Day Slumber played New Years Eve at our church. They actualy tour with a Soundcraft GB8 on their smaller tours. They have a custom-designed PA that consists of about 12-18 10" per side with 8 18" subs per side. All in-ears, run in mono, as the GB8 doesn't have stereo aux mixes anyway. Interestingly enough, their processing on this show was Behringer... which I guess the PA manufacturer dialed-in for them because their Driverack is down right now.

Anyway, these guys rolled-in, and their tour manager/FOH A1 quickly informed me that he'd been begging (in vain) for an M7. I think that, after hearing some of the sound-check, the owner/lead vocal of the band/ministry was in favor of pursuing the purchase a little further.

They mixed a rock show at 105-110dBc and we all (including the band's "entourage" thought it was great. I mixed the opener at 100-105, so as not to overshadow the headliner, and it sounded equally as good. That's slightly louder than we run our Sunday morning services with our PA.

My bottom line is that I can get great sound out of an M7 on multiple different rigs with different processing, and different mics. I can also do the same with multiple bands on the same stage on the same night.

I did have a chance to hear the SD8 a little. I didn't get to mix on it, and it wasn't a band. I had a chance for a somewhat private viewing of the console about a month or so ago. Great console, by the looks of it. Although I wasn't sure it was CRAZY good enough to justify the price increase.
Logged
Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1484
Re: Digico SD8-Console "sounds"
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2009, 09:50:06 am »

Oran Burns wrote on Fri, 02 January 2009 07:57

Im not so sure? I mean the console is the engineers work palette! its how one shapes their sound. I realize that the PA is very important but i think the console is very important as well.
Its got to be something that you like the sound of!
I use the M7 alot at different events etc and i can get a "result".
I just wouldn't put it in my church where sound quality is most important.

I think that David made the point, but do you really think that in real world use the average church member is going to notice the difference?  I don't think anyone is arguing that there is not some difference in the sound but if an M7CL functionally serves the purpose and virtually none of the membership would notice the difference, does your thinking it sounds better justify the additional investment, which would be considerable here but may be less of a difference there?

I think a great example of some of the issues is that you note the M7CL sounding "digital" but say that "Even the Roland V mixer (which is cheaper than the M7 CL) made a good attempt at reaching the "acceptable level"."  Yet the demo I heard of the Roland digital snake left me considering it unacceptable due to it having a very harsh and "digital" sound.  Whether it was the demo setup or personal preference, we apparently had exactly the opposite impressions.  That happens and listening to comments from others since then I have realized that what I heard is not be the impression most people have, sometimes it takes listening to other people's perspectives to know that what you heard was an anomaly or to refine your own views.

Big picture here, first you were discussing the d&b Q series and the need for the sound quality you associated there, while also identifying at that time that you had no budget, and now you are worried about the difference in sound between an M7CL and an SD8.  No arguing that a d&B Q series and DigiCo SD8 based system could be very nice sounding, but at least in my experience it is also rather impractical and unrealistic for most churches.  To be rather blunt, and not knowing your actual role in the church, does your perspective represent that of the church?  Are subtle sound differences and the absolute highest fidelity really that high a priority and a practical goal?  Do you have the budget this requires?  In my experience most churches have to make some compromises and functionality and budget often take precedence over subtle sound quality differences.  Maybe you are lucky and have the resources and support to not have to consider such compromises but I just want to be sure that issues such as those raised are of practical concern and that you are focusing on the factors that really matter for your application.
Logged
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
www.museav.com

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Digico SD8-Console "sounds"
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2009, 09:50:06 am »


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.076 seconds with 21 queries.