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Author Topic: 6' Grand With Lid Off  (Read 8022 times)

Jeff Ekstrand

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2008, 12:09:32 pm »

Thanks Kent!

It seems SDCs are probably the first mode to try. It's being played with a band, so I'm thinking more outside rejection is a plus. Probably keep it closer to the hammers to make sure it has the percussion to be prevalent in the mix if we need it to be there.

GBF was my concern with the PZMs, and it sounds fairly legitimate. I'll probably mess around with placement. On the plus side, I could get a pzm right in around the strings (find the right place), and reduce gain to a truly minimal level.

It doesn't sound like this particular project is my excuse to purchase an additional KSM32... oh well, I'm sure something will come along. Perhaps I'll give this a shot with the KSM137s and see how that works. Thursday is our first test day, so I'll keep everyone posted.

Oh, and the SM47... yeah, typo... heh heh. Thinking outside the box, what would be a great mic for Shure to market as an SM47? Is there something that doesn't exist in the SM line yet?
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Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Kent Thompson

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2008, 12:14:17 pm »

Quote:

 what would be a great mic for Shure to market as an SM47?

a mic with the capsule angled 90 degrees from the body.

Just so you know we use a shure beta 98 on our piano because I could clamp it to the harp and close the lid with it inside.
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Jeff Ekstrand

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2008, 02:21:29 pm »

I am a fan of the B98. Smile Just in general. I actually haven't ever used it on piano, but I've used the AKG 419s. It's not a bad option.

Hmmmm... SM56? I like the idea.

I also like the idea of this whole white spaces thing being resolved, regardless of how it ends-up, because then Shure can get back to designing something new again. Smile So much of their resources have been spent trying to prepare for and mediate the White Spaces ordeal that they put their DSPs on hold, haven't designed any new mics (KSM9 as the exception), etc.
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Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Lee Buckalew

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2008, 07:00:42 pm »

In order to avoid the reflection problems that the lids create we record piano's with the lid off whenever possible.  We also use this technique during live recording even when the piano has to be reinforced.  Generally (if not going for a classical sound) we close mic using small diaphragm condensers (DPA 4011, Schoeps CMC6/MK4, AKG451 the older models, Neumann 184).  We don't experience any of the problematic lid reflections this way.  It can create problems with gain before feedback but this can be helped by only utilizing the micing for the house mix and adding a pickup (Barcus Berry 4000) for the monitor needs.  Frequently the micing is not XY but ORTF or spaced even further apart to obtain the balance that we want.  Clamps on the piano Harp can work well as can strong magnetic mounts such as those from DPA.  Stands are always possible but not as "sexy".

For classical we mic at more of a distance with Neumann M149's or M147's or sometimes original Gefell UMT70's.

Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
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Kent Thompson

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2008, 10:18:16 am »

Using the pickup for monitors is an interesting idea and yeah with a microphone arsenal like that all kinds of things are possible.
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Jeff Ekstrand

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2008, 02:51:37 pm »

Lee, any ideas on where to start with SDC placement? Obviously it will depend on our piano and desired sound, just wondering where you like to start when there's no lid.

And, yes, with a mic arsenal like that you can do just about anything. Something tells me that those aren't all just sitting around a live audio company's shop, but rather options that have been used with success. Maybe someone in the super high-end market has all of those laying around, or a good studio, but that's some serious expensive gear. Smile

I'd love a pair of older 451s... giggity.

Too much to spend money on... I just ordered a new strat, and I'm in the market for either an AC15 or an Orange Tiny Terror...
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Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Lee Buckalew

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2008, 03:47:45 pm »

Jeff,
It is a nice mic package and no, all of those are not at a live shop although a number of the live companies in our area do stock KM140's, 184's and 185's as well as older AKG 451's.  These would tend to be my go to's live.
The other mics are in the arsenal of my recording partner and I.  We have put a very nice complimet togther over the years.  That is only a few of the mics we have. But remember that it's more about mic placement then it is about the mic.  as long as the mic is O.K. I'd rather have an SM57 placed really well than a DPA4011 just stuck someplace it would fit but sounding bad.

Older 451's are not that pricey and actually the older Neumann's sound better than the current production models head to head.  In the used or consignment market (or studios going out of business) you can frequently find some very good deals.

For pickup placement it really depneds upon the piano.  If you are using a pickup like the Barcus remember that it is "directional".  It is designed to pick up oscillations that cross it in one direction only.

Frequently mounting in one of the sound holes works well although I have had better succes with some piano's mounting to the bottom of the sound board.  It does need to be taped to the actual sound board.  
Be sure to have extra tape on hand.  The tape that comes with these can only be used once.

Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
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Tom Young

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2008, 05:44:19 pm »

"As far as no boundary for the pzm what about the soundboard beneath the harp under one of the holes? Use some of that poster hanging putty to keep it secure. That would give you a 6 foot boundary."

The harp plate will act as a barrier to the direct sound from the strings. The area between the soundboard and harp will also act as a resonant chamber.

I'm not trying to be a kill-joy. Just thnk about what you are doing, that's all. It isn't that simple.


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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
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Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2008, 05:57:59 pm »

The soundboard is also a soundboard, much like a guitar top.  You don't want to be sticking very much mass to it, because that will affect the acoustic sound of the piano.

How about a plexiglass top?
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Scott Helmke
TC Furlong, Inc.

Tom Young

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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2008, 06:04:12 pm »

"The soundboard is also a soundboard, much like a guitar top. You don't want to be sticking very much mass to it, because that will affect the acoustic sound of the piano."

Good point.

It is not uncommon to affix a Barcus Berry planar pickup to the sound board. But this is small and has very low mass.

A full bore PZM has quite a bit more mass *and* would probably not fit through the sound hole.

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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
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Re: 6' Grand With Lid Off
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2008, 06:04:12 pm »


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