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Author Topic: New Sound System  (Read 32092 times)

Mike Galica

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2008, 12:29:14 am »

When it comes to a Spectral Analyzer, RTA, FFT unit or any such other frequency vs amplitude related thing, they're awesome when in the right hands and horribly frightening when in the wrong hands.

I'm being purposefully vague but hopefully not so much so that my point is missed. Wink
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Mike Galica

Shad Hall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2008, 02:08:24 am »

Mike Galica wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 00:29

When it comes to a Spectral Analyzer, RTA, FFT unit or any such other frequency vs amplitude related thing, they're awesome when in the right hands and horribly frightening when in the wrong hands.

I'm being purposefully vague but hopefully not so much so that my point is missed. Wink

Nah, I think I got your point. Smile  So since I don't know much about them, what happens to the whole mix if that unit is left out of the equation?  Just curious, though in my opinion/answer would be that I need to then be taught how to use it properly, but that's not my question. Wink

Shad
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Brad Weber

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2008, 09:25:34 am »

Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 18:41

Now, are these Spectral Analyzers professional-use only equipment that require a PH.D. to operate or can the be rented/purchased? Secondly, if someone/store was to come in and set up all of the new equipment, would they tune that as well?

That video is far from the worst presentation on equalization that I've seen but is also from from the best.  Along with a few technical issues, one major factor left out is that there are many issues with both the system and the room that affect the resulting frequency response but that cannot be addressed with equalization.  Things like room modes, speaker interaction and polarity.

Another factor not mentioned is that the frequency response will typically vary all over the room and what helps in one location may be detrimental for others, it is often a matter of measuring in many locations and developing a 'best fit' solution.  Too many people tune the system for the mix position without even considering how it sounds throughout the seating.

A basic RTA (Real Time Analyzer) is not that difficult to use and some can be purchased relatively inexpensively, for example the Phonic PAA3 is not accurate enough that it is something I would use when charging someone for the service but at $400 it can serve as a basic 1/3 octave RTA and a Sound Level Meter.  Many people use inexpensive or free software, often with the soundcard in their laptop and existing mics.  This works but one must remember that you are then including all those devices in what you measure.

The big problem with RTAs is that they cannot identify or separate the type of problems that can't be fixed with equalization, so you can spend all day trying to adjust for something an RTA shows with no effect.  This is where FFT, TEF and SIM type measurements that can look at the sound in terms of time, amplitude and frequency are so valuable, they can help identify such problems and provide information on what may be required to resolve them.  However, to be used effectively takes understanding the basic concepts behind this as well as knowing how to use that particular platform and these devices definitely can be misused.

It is also important to realize that even the most advanced tools are still simply tools to help you get to the desired result but the actual final result is going to be set by what sounds good.  Smaart, SysTune, Praxis, SIM, MacFOH, etc. can't tune a system for you or tell you how to tune it, but properly used they can be an immensely valuable tool in tuning.

As far as someone tuning the system, that depends.  If you used a reputable Contractor to install the system they might include tuning.  It should be an integral part of bigger projects but should always be specifically requested if you want it, don't assume it is being provided.  If you are just buying equipment it would likely not be included.  In either case, you probably want to verify what tuning is included and how it will be performed.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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Shad Hall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2008, 02:48:05 pm »

Hi everyone,

Life's been busy for me lately and I'm just able to get back to this thread some more.

First of all, again, I would like to say thanks for your input. There still seems to be a lot to learn, but I think we're nearin point of needing to talk to someone in person; would you agree? After that, I can log back and post their suggestions and see what you all have to say about it.

Should we go ahead and have someone come out or keep talking about it here? If the latter, I would like to delve into the overall picture for the shopping list. Questions would be specific as to name/model of speakers, EQ's, cables, etc. Then I would be able to have a list to run by other people.

EDIT:
Here is an almost completed list. What needs to be added to it? (Again, links are only for reference purposes.)

Please specifically address points number 4 and 6.

===========================
1. Mixer Board: $1299
  Allen & Heath PA28
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Allen---Heath-PA28-Mixer-634045- i1153548.gc


2. Cable Snake: $499 (currently utilizing a ProCo 100' 12/4)
  Horizon Concert Series 100' 16-Channel/4-Return Snake
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Horizon-Concert-Series-150--16-C hannel-4-Return-Stage-Snake-336678-i1129160.gc


3. Power Amp: $499/ea (house speakers x2, stage monitors x2; 4 speakers total)
  Crown XTi 1000
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Crown-XTi-1000-Power-Amplifier-1 03635561-i1145684.gc
 

4. Equalizer: ???
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Default.aspx?src=equalize r&Search.x=0&Search.y=0&Search=Go
  (P.s. I found this Mackie Quad EQ, which has 4 channels, so we could run the two house speakers plus two stage monitors. It also comes with a mic for setting issues.)


5. Speakers: $899/ea (planning 2(two) for house speakers)
  QSC HPR122i
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/QSC-HPR122i-12--2-Way-Powered-Mu             ltipurpose-Loudspeaker-104157565-i1171467.gc?source=4LQSWXX1


6. Speaker cables: ??
  Balanced female XLR connectors on speakers. (Couldn't find any speaker cables with XLR connectors.)


7. Shure SM58: $99
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-58A-Mic-100059222-i11 26428.gc


8. Shure SM57: $99
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-57A-Microphone-100106 076-i1126429.gc


9. Mic Cables: $15
  30'EWI SLMN
              http://www.audiopile.net/products/Mic_Instr_Cables/SLMA/SLMN /SLMN_cutsheet.asp
===========================


Thoughts?
Shad
Very Happy
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Mike Galica

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2008, 10:36:57 am »

I had some other thoughts than this, but don't have the time to research them more fully.

I'd strongly advise getting different mic cable lengths.  There's few things more annoying than having a 30' cable covering a 3' run.  I'd vote for a handful of 5', 10', and 15's, a good number of 25/30 footers with one or two 50' cables.

Also, why do you need an amp if you're getting powered main speakers?  Because they're powered, any XLR can carry their balanced, line-level signal just fine.  With the powered speakers you may want to invest in a Driverack 260 or equivalent to handle some of your room EQ.

Do you need stands and such as well?  If so go with KLM or something nice and not-cheap-plastic.

That's all of thought of so far.
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Mike Galica

Aaron McQueen

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2008, 07:07:49 pm »

Here are my thoughts:

Shad Hall wrote on Wed, 20 August 2008 14:48


===========================
1. Mixer Board: $1299
  Allen & Heath PA28
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Allen---Heath-PA28-Mixer-634045- i1153548.gc



Fine but don't by anything from GC.  You can do much better price as far a price and service.

Quote:


2. Cable Snake: $499 (currently utilizing a ProCo 100' 12/4)
  Horizon Concert Series 100' 16-Channel/4-Return Snake
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Horizon-Concert-Series-150--16-C hannel-4-Return-Stage-Snake-336678-i1129160.gc



Why not get an EWI snake from audiopile along with your mic cables?

Quote:


3. Power Amp: $499/ea (house speakers x2, stage monitors x2; 4 speakers total)
  Crown XTi 1000
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Crown-XTi-1000-Power-Amplifier-1 03635561-i1145684.gc



You don't need an amplifier for the powered mains you've chosen below.  You can however use the two amp channels for 2 separate monitor mixes.  

Quote:


4. Equalizer: ???
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Default.aspx?src=equalize r&Search.x=0&Search.y=0&Search=Go
  (P.s. I found this Mackie Quad EQ, which has 4 channels, so we could run the two house speakers plus two stage monitors. It also comes with a mic for setting issues.)



I would wait on this.  Unless you have someone to help you set this up, that knows what they are doing, you may do more harm then good.  I find that generally with powered speakers less eq is needed.

Quote:


5. Speakers: $899/ea (planning 2(two) for house speakers)
  QSC HPR122i
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/QSC-HPR122i-12--2-Way-Powered-Mu              ltipurpose-Loudspeaker-104157565-i1171467.gc?source=4LQSWXX1



This are great sounding speakers.  However I can't say if they will provide the proper coverage in your room.

Quote:


6. Speaker cables: ??
  Balanced female XLR connectors on speakers. (Couldn't find any speaker cables with XLR connectors.)



You don't need speaker cables for your powered mains.  You just use a mic cable in reverse.  You will need to connect one of you snake returns directly to your powered speakers using a microphone cable.  You will need speaker cables for you monitors.  Remember you will also need power (120V) for your powered mains.

Quote:


7. Shure SM58: $99
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-58A-Mic-100059222-i11 26428.gc



While the SM58 has become somewhat of a standard and has been consistent for a long time, I prefer the Sennheiser E835 for a budget dynamic microphone.  You can get a three pack for $180.  They sound better and seem just as rugged.

Quote:


8. Shure SM57: $99
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-57A-Microphone-100106 076-i1126429.gc



Fine for instruments.

Quote:


9. Mic Cables: $15
  30'EWI SLMN
               http://www.audiopile.net/products/Mic_Instr_Cables/SLMA/SLMN /SLMN_cutsheet.asp



Good choice.  Get a few other lengths and a couple direct boxes from audiopile while your at it.
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Shad Hall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2008, 09:46:40 pm »

Aaron McQueen wrote on Thu, 21 August 2008 19:07

Here are my thoughts: "...[i truncated this for length reasons]"



Thank you for the detailed responses to the individual items. That is exactly what I was hoping for. Smile  I will look into your suggestions.  

Shad
Very Happy
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Mike Galica

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2008, 11:18:46 am »

Since Aaron mentioned the Senn 835s, you may want to take a look at the Audix i5 instead of the SM57.  I'm a pretty big fan of them, and IIRC they're about the same price.

http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/i-5.shtml

Take it for what it's worth; I'm just presenting alternatives.  The SM57 is a solid mic.
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Mike Galica

Shad Hall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2008, 01:01:56 pm »

Mike Galica wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 11:18

Since Aaron mentioned the Senn 835s, you may want to take a look at the Audix i5 instead of the SM57.  I'm a pretty big fan of them, and IIRC they're about the same price.

http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/i-5.shtml

Take it for what it's worth; I'm just presenting alternatives.  The SM57 is a solid mic.

What is "IIRC"? I will definitely look into the Audix mics. Is it scientifically been proved to have all the same brand mics on the stage?

Thanks,
Shad
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Christopher Buehring

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2008, 01:27:32 pm »

Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 12:01


What is "IIRC"?
Thanks,
Shad


IIRC = If I Recall/Remember Correctly
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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2008, 01:27:32 pm »


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