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[Shad Hall]

Justin Rygel wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 12:00

Quote: Regarding speaker mounts, tripods seem to be popular, but as you can see, we are working with limited space. I don't want to hang them, because they could get in the way with the flat screen TV's (a thread on this is over on the H.O.W. A/V forums). I like the idea of mounting them on the side walls, but wonder about sound traveling the walls throughout the building. Thoughts? This is a sticky subject and very few people here will recommend doing this without professional assistance by a structural engineer.  I am a structural engineer, although not in the entertainment industry, and I wholeheartedly agree.  If anything you have hanging from the walls or ceilings falls down and hurts someone (speakers are heavy), the church would be liable if you hung the speakers up yourselves.  If you have a professional install/rigging company do it, they would be liable, and they are insured against such things.  That being said, you might want to plan your purchases with this in mind.  First of all, I wouldn't worry about sound traveling through the walls via the mount.  Second, some speakers have mounting points built in and are designed to be hung, and some don't.  Of the speakers discussed so far, only the QSC HPR series have mounting points.  In addition, the HP122i has a conical distribution, so it doesn't make any difference if you mount in vertically or horizontally, so you could put a pair of these up horizontally hung from the ceiling, and they might be clear of the sightlines.  In any case, you might want to think about trying to get speakers that have mounting points so that you could hire someone to hang them in the future without having to buy new speakers again.  Having the speakers up higher makes a huge difference in getting the sound even across the entire audience.

I checked out the QSC HPR122i speakers specifically on QSC's web site, downloaded the PDF about them and watched a couple videos on their staff, factory, how they are made and how they are tested for durability and also sound quality. They throw the amps and speakers off of the factory roof into the parking lot!!   (PDF's and videos can be found here.)

Well, I will add these to the shopping list. Once this thread comes to an end, I will post the finalized shopping list for one final critique from everybody.

Thanks,
Shad

[Andy Peters]

Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 13:45

Andy Peters wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 03:02 Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:15 Now, I'm heading back to their web site to search for an article comparing the SM58 to the Beta58A. I admire your initiative about doing your own research! And the short answer is that the SM58 is a cardioid and the Beta58A is a supercardioid. -a Thanks. If a cardioid and a supercardioid are simply grills affecting wave length flow, then I'm guessing that a "hypercardioid" and "supercardioid" are one in the same, yes?

It's more than just the grille; there's a lot to capsule design.

Hypercardioid is, as the name suggests, "even more tighter" than a supercardioid. For example, the Audix OM7 and EV 967 are examples of hypercardioids. If your vocalist is not literally right on the mic, there is very little output.

-a

[Tom Young]

The grill has nothing to do with the pickup pattern of a microphone. Grills are used to protect the delicate cartridge (containing the diaphragm, voice coil, etc), reduce wind blasts and keep dust and crud out.

Directional microphones (cardioid, supercardioid, hypercardioid, shotgun, etc) employ porting (and damping) on the rear of the diaphragm that, through phase cancellation, alter the amount of acoustic energy from the rear and sides that adds coherently with the direct/on-axis (from the front) sound. On most microphones these ports are not visible from the outside.

You can google and find in-depth descriptions of the design and mechanisms that are used.

There is a brief article on directional microphones here on PSW:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/spotlight/cardioid/cardio idmics.shtml

[Brad Weber]

Shad,

Microphones and speakers are both very dependent upon the specific application.  What is a great choice for one situation may be a poor choice in another.  For example, if your pastor likes to move the mic around a lot, talking at different orientations to it, etc., then an omni pattern might be beneficial.  If you have a mic right in front of a stage monitor then a cardioid pattern might work better.  And different mics may work better with different vocalists. But I don't think you have really defined how the mics will be used.

For speakers characteristics such as the response, pattern and output may be the main considerations and I don't think those have even been mentioned.  The kind of levels you run during services, what instruments run through the system and so on are also factors that I do not think have been addressed.  I will differ from some of the others and say that this is likely a poor application for powered speakers since it is an installed system in an existing space and powered speakers would require getting power and new cabling to where the speakers are located.

I'm not sure where monitors entered the picture but I had been wondering why you need returns on the snake.  And speaking of the snake, how do you plan on running it from the stage to the mix position, why the 150' length and will having all the stage connectivity at one point work well for you (or will it end up with cables all over the stage and people tripping over them)?  There seems to keep being additional bits of information added but little discussion of what you do and your plans, which operantly include some fairly major changes to the room in the near future.

In fact, the discussion so far seems to have focused much more on specific individual products.  It might make more sense to first define your vision, expectations, desires, etc. and what you are trying to do.  From that information you can develop what the system needs to do to support that vision, including future growth.  Once you have that in place you can then start looking at the individual products that fit the system concept defined.  Starting with addressing products rather than the application is typically the tail wagging the dog.

For example, you might find that some acoustical treatments might be beneficial rather than trying to work around the room.  And discussing new speakers seems moot when we don't know your goals and new speakers appear to be well outside your budget.  Meanwhile, you may have some practical issues such as where to house a new amplifier and how to run the snakes to the stage to address that will use up more of your limited budget than you expected.

[Dan Costello]

Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:58

Mixer: I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp*

You sure about that? Generally, you don't get individual, replaceable channel modules until you spend around $30K+ for the console. There are some pictures in the PA28 manual that make it look like the electronics aren't all printed on the same circuit board, so maybe you could pull parts from the channel (e.g. the EQ section or pre-amp), but I'm certain it won't come out as one solid unit.

I'd double check that before banking on it as a "feature."

-Dan.

[Shad Hall]

Great replies everyone! I'll get back to them on Monday. Have a good weekend.

Shad

[Shad Hall]

Hope you all had a good weekend. I got some needed R&R and am now back onLine.

In reading your replies again, I realized I might becoming across as a bull in a china shop.  But proactive attitudes get things done, right? And luckily I have you all to keep me balanced. Thanks again for all of your input thus far.

Okay, to replying to your all's commentary...

Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58

Shad, Microphones and speakers are both very dependent upon the specific application.  What is a great choice for one situation may be a poor choice in another.  For example, if your pastor likes to move the mic around a lot, talking at different orientations to it, etc., then an omni pattern might be beneficial.  If you have a mic right in front of a stage monitor then a cardioid pattern might work better.  And different mics may work better with different vocalists. But I don't think you have really defined how the mics will be used.

This is a great point you brought up and I should have realized that I was going about everything backwards, especially, since I'm a web developer. I really did get all proactive about all of this since it's been a long time coming and just going about this in a Rambo fashion - running into the jungle with guns blazing!

To make things simple, let's start over and go about this in a more efficient manner.  

Currently, we have 3 musicians (aside from sound man); worship leader who plays guitar, two backup singers.  However, things are changing and a new group is on their way, but this is what you have to take in faith, because we are believing and praying fervently for this to come to fruition.  So since we don't have definite musical positions to fill/consider for this thread, this is what I'm projecting and also leaving room for growth in the future of course.

Lead vocal (Audio-Technica - Omnidirectional Condenser Headworn Microphone Currently using this or similar model; not sure of exact model humber.)
3 x backup singers
2 x guitars (1 is wireless pack by Audio-Technica)
1 x bass guitar
1 x electric piano (stereo)
1 x mic'd konga set (4 mics?)*

* This past Friday, I was down at the church and for the fun of it, I took 4 vocal mics and mic'd the konga set (2 x bongos; 2 x kongas) and set the levels and rocked out. It sounds much better mic'd than simply acoustic and not just because of volume reasons.

So in that list, I count 10-12 channels. If/once a trap set is added, another 8-10 channels will be absorbed.

Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58

For speakers characteristics such as the response, pattern and output may be the main considerations and I don't think those have even been mentioned.  The kind of levels you run during services, what instruments run through the system and so on are also factors that I do not think have been addressed.  I will differ from some of the others and say that this is likely a poor application for powered speakers since it is an installed system in an existing space and powered speakers would require getting power and new cabling to where the speakers are located.

I have heard that bass guitars should not be run directly into mixer boards; is this true? I know a lot of musicians want control over their own bass amps, but can't they use their amp as a monitor and pass the control onto the mixer? Suggestions?

Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58

I'm not sure where monitors entered the picture but I had been wondering why you need returns on the snake.  And speaking of the snake, how do you plan on running it from the stage to the mix position, why the 150' length and will having all the stage connectivity at one point work well for you (or will it end up with cables all over the stage and people tripping over them)?  There seems to keep being additional bits of information added but little discussion of what you do and your plans, which operantly include some fairly major changes to the room in the near future.

I'm not sure I understand your comment asking why we need "returns" on the snake. I thought this was standard. You can get snakes without "returns"? Wouldn't you want them?

Yeah, 150' is a lot, but it was the same price as the 100' and if/when we knock out the nursery wall behind the sound booth, I thought we might still be able to use the same snake without having to buy more equipment. (From stage to mixer, it's 50'.) The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry.

Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58

In fact, the discussion so far seems to have focused much more on specific individual products.  It might make more sense to first define your vision, expectations, desires, etc. and what you are trying to do.  From that information you can develop what the system needs to do to support that vision, including future growth.  Once you have that in place you can then start looking at the individual products that fit the system concept defined.  Starting with addressing products rather than the application is typically the tail wagging the dog. For example, you might find that some acoustical treatments might be beneficial rather than trying to work around the room.  And discussing new speakers seems moot when we don't know your goals and new speakers appear to be well outside your budget.  Meanwhile, you may have some practical issues such as where to house a new amplifier and how to run the snakes to the stage to address that will use up more of your limited budget than you expected.

A local music store here, mailed us an advertisement this past week offering to come out, assess our situation and suggest what we need and all of that for free.  Now, that's good and all, but now we're down to one person's opinion, which is the MAIN reason I joined these forums, so that I could get multiple angles of input and make a better decision in the end.  So unless you all encourage me another way, I think I will keep talking about all of this with you all until I feel that I have all of the needed knowledge and then call them and have them come out.  This way, I will be able to discuss the issue intelligently with them, which will be better for all involved.

Thanks for your patience,
Shad

[Shad Hall]

Dan Costello wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 16:33

Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:58 Mixer: I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp* You sure about that? Generally, you don't get individual, replaceable channel modules until you spend around $30K+ for the console. There are some pictures in the PA28 manual that make it look like the electronics aren't all printed on the same circuit board, so maybe you could pull parts from the channel (e.g. the EQ section or pre-amp), but I'm certain it won't come out as one solid unit. I'd double check that before banking on it as a "feature." -Dan.

Interesting that you should bring this up, because this was one of the main reasons for choosing this board. However, to clear up this issue, I just sent A&H an eMail inquiring about it.

Will get back to this once they reply.
Shad

[Mike Galica]

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:59

* This past Friday, I was down at the church and for the fun of it, I took 4 vocal mics and mic'd the konga set (2 x bongos; 2 x kongas) and set the levels and rocked out. It sounds much better mic'd than simply acoustic and not just because of volume reasons. So in that list, I count 10-12 channels. If/once a trap set is added, another 8-10 channels will be absorbed.

There are a number of easier ways to mic hand drums and drum kits with fewer mics, especially if they're not caged or anything.  Individual micing will often lead to more control and a better sound, but it's also more money.  A single overhead (and kick for a trap kit) is often all I find myself needing, even when I'm wishing for more.

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:59

I have heard that bass guitars should not be run directly into mixer boards; is this true? I know a lot of musicians want control over their own bass amps, but can't they use their amp as a monitor and pass the control onto the mixer? Suggestions?

If you mean a direct run from the bass to the board over 50', I can think of several reasons why that might be a bad idea.  If you're going into a DI or a short run somewhere, there'd be no problem whatsoever with either option.

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:59

A local music store here, mailed us an advertisement this past week offering to come out, assess our situation and suggest what we need and all of that for free.  Now, that's good and all, but now we're down to one person's opinion, which is the MAIN reason I joined these forums, so that I could get multiple angles of input and make a better decision in the end.  So unless you all encourage me another way, I think I will keep talking about all of this with you all until I feel that I have all of the needed knowledge and then call them and have them come out.  This way, I will be able to discuss the issue intelligently with them, which will be better for all involved.

I'm always wary about anyone offering my anything for free, especially when its a local music store who is sending you an ad with the intent of recouping their time spent on you by getting you to buy whatever they might recommend.  If you're going to have someone look at your system it'll cost to get quality people.  Course I also have had a number of bad experiences with music store "experts" in the past, so I could easily be my normal jaded, cynical self.

[Shad Hall]

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 16:16

Dan Costello wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 16:33 Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:58 Mixer: I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp* You sure about that? Generally, you don't get individual, replaceable channel modules until you spend around $30K+ for the console. There are some pictures in the PA28 manual that make it look like the electronics aren't all printed on the same circuit board, so maybe you could pull parts from the channel (e.g. the EQ section or pre-amp), but I'm certain it won't come out as one solid unit. I'd double check that before banking on it as a "feature." -Dan. Interesting that you should bring this up, because this was one of the main reasons for choosing this board. However, to clear up this issue, I just sent A&H an eMail inquiring about it. Will get back to this once they reply. Shad

Allen & Heath's reply:

Quote:

Shad, ALL of our boards have this feature. Also go to our website and check out the new ZED mixer line for Live sound! Very cool. Michael Palmer Allen & Heath National Sales Manager American Music And Sound

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