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Author Topic: New Sound System  (Read 31961 times)

Shad Hall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2008, 11:54:45 pm »

Dan Costello wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 21:22

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 20:39

David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38


More 57's and 58's are always good to have around. What mics do you have now??

I've never been a fan of the colored windscreens. We use colored electrical tape when we need to color code.


Yeah, black windscreens would look better, but if the singers hand is covering up the color-coded tape system, then I have to be dead-on in knowing which person has which mic. This is not to imply laziness, because even when I worked on a 16 channel board system at a previous church, I had every single knob setting memorized just in case they got changed during the week for some reason.  It simply would be better than squinting in a lowly lit room at night during a Christmas play. Personal preference maybe is all it boils down to. =)



This is more of a general church-sound question and not picking on you, but is it really that big of a deal for church folks to put some masking tape on the board and label the channels "Vox L," "Vox C," "Vox R," etc or "Steve," "Joe," and "Wendy."? Everybody on the outside gets by w/o colored windscreens, why can't we?

And yes, my church has them, too. But one thing at a time.  Very Happy

-Dan.


Laughing Okay, I'll let them know, "because Dan said so!". Very Happy  Alright, I'll consider saving the money. Now regarding the Shure SM58/a's, are windscreen even needed?

Thanks,
Shad
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Mike Galica

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2008, 10:39:53 am »

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 21:54

Now regarding the Shure SM58/a's, are windscreen even needed?


Unless it's incredibly windy inside your church or your singers have particularly explosive consonants, I'd vote no.
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Jeff Ekstrand

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 01:54:48 pm »

Big reply... ready... go!

I agree, while it's probably not priority 1, I think windscreens look weird when they're all different colors and they're distracting when used in church. Plus, they attenuate the mic a little differently. As previously stated, they're also only necessary in windy outdoor conditions, or for an extremely plosive singer. 99% of those issues can be remedied by proper EQ before the need for a windscreen.

Getting the speakers symmetric is also another good idea. It may sound okay now, but if you can make it sound better, and look better (in my opinion), then why not do it? The plant is funny, actually. If you're going to look into new speakers, you may look into something white in addition to the smaller option you were talking about. Small and unobtrusive often "sounds quieter" to the average listener.

If you want, we can all give you contact info for vendors who will get you 57's and 58's for less than your original quote. Saving 33% per mic is a pretty good savings, you could get 4 mics for every three with the previous prices.

Also, there really is no SM58"a" or SM75"a", the "A" on the Beta58A is noting that it is a hypercardioid microphone. If you look at the Beta87 series, the "A" model is hypercardioid, and the "C" version is regular cardioid. In the SM series of microphones, there are only cardioid versions. In a pinch, a little secret that is now more widely known than a few years ago is that the SM58 and SM57 are the same mics. Take the grill off the 58, and you have yourself a 57 without any protection. Take a look at some concert DVDs, especially Third Day's "Come Together" show, and their vocals, except for Mac Powel, are all on 57s... not a standard practice really, but apparently 8th Day Sound is doing something right if they've booked the last four Third Day tours. Lastly on this topic, there really are no other microphones in Shure's lineup that have both an "A" and "C" model beside the Beta87. If the SM58 were to have a letter, I would assume it would be "C" as it has a cardioid polar pattern.

The Crown xTi series are good amps. I will only "let you" buy it if you promise me you'll properly use the built-in DSP. Smile It's not worth buying an amp with built in processing if you're not going to use it. Again, being a good steward of the oney and gear, if you buy it and don't use it properly, I will "never forgive you." Smile If you don't think you need the DSP (which you could probably benefit from), then go another direction. But, like I just said, 99% of application could benefit from some form of DSP, so it's not a bad idea.

I think you're headed in a good direction, and I'm glad we can help. Keep up the good work, and don't be afraid to ask questions.
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Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Shad Hall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2008, 05:00:46 pm »

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54

Big reply... ready... go!

I agree, while it's probably not priority 1, I think windscreens look weird when they're all different colors and they're distracting when used in church. Plus, they attenuate the mic a little differently. As previously stated, they're also only necessary in windy outdoor conditions, or for an extremely plosive singer. 99% of those issues can be remedied by proper EQ before the need for a windscreen.


Ya learn something new every day. =) From this day forth, I solemnly swear to never use multi-colored windscreens again, so help me God. Smile

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54



Getting the speakers symmetric is also another good idea. It may sound okay now, but if you can make it sound better, and look better (in my opinion), then why not do it? The plant is funny, actually. If you're going to look into new speakers, you may look into something white in addition to the smaller option you were talking about. Small and unobtrusive often "sounds quieter" to the average listener.



I have always found human psycology fascinating and this is a prime example that you mentioned. Will definitely keep this in mind.

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54



If you want, we can all give you contact info for vendors who will get you 57's and 58's for less than your original quote. Saving 33% per mic is a pretty good savings, you could get 4 mics for every three with the previous prices.

Also, there really is no SM58"a" or SM75"a", the "A" on the Beta58A is noting that it is a hypercardioid microphone. If you look at the Beta87 series, the "A" model is hypercardioid, and the "C" version is regular cardioid. In the SM series of microphones, there are only cardioid versions. In a pinch, a little secret that is now more widely known than a few years ago is that the SM58 and SM57 are the same mics. Take the grill off the 58, and you have yourself a 57 without any protection. Take a look at some concert DVDs, especially Third Day's "Come Together" show, and their vocals, except for Mac Powel, are all on 57s... not a standard practice really, but apparently 8th Day Sound is doing something right if they've booked the last four Third Day tours. Lastly on this topic, there really are no other microphones in Shure's lineup that have both an "A" and "C" model beside the Beta87. If the SM58 were to have a letter, I would assume it would be "C" as it has a cardioid polar pattern.



Hey, look I learned two things in one day! Very Happy  Laughing But I do have some questions regarding your comments about SM57 & 58's. You mentioned that they are the same mics, so I surfed over to Shure's web site and did a bit of research to learn some more detail.  I'm by no means trying to prove you wrong or be stubborn, but picking your brain so that I have all of the info necessary to make a competent purchasing decision in the end.

According to Shure, the SM57 uses an r57 cartridge whereas the SM58 uses an r59 cartridge.  Now, maybe these cartridges are interchangeable, but wouldn't they be producing/presenting sound differently? Here are two PDF's (1MB each) with potentially beneficial information: SM57 User Guide & SM58 User Guide.  They both have slightly different Polar Patterns, but I'm not sure how to read them. Can you explain to me in a few words how to read frequencies or point me to a good site?

I watched the "Come Together" video on YouTube and see that the lead singer is using the SM57.  Ever notice that church bands with amatuers, the singers tend to hold the mic where ever they want to? Smile  This has always been a struggle for me as a sound guy and always having to remind them to keep the mic at least a fist-length from their mouth if not closer. From some reviews that I read of the Beta 58A, I gathered that this mic would better pick up vocals when a singer let the mic drop to chest level and that was one my main reasons for considering this model over the SM58's.  The other reason is also from user reviews and how everyone commented on having a much warmer tone to it than the SM58.  Regardless of which way we end up going, I will confront the band (encouragingly and without being condescending) that they have no choice but to hold their mic properly if they want to ever play again. Laughing

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54



The Crown xTi series are good amps. I will only "let you" buy it if you promise me you'll properly use the built-in DSP. Smile It's not worth buying an amp with built in processing if you're not going to use it. Again, being a good steward of the oney and gear, if you buy it and don't use it properly, I will "never forgive you." Smile If you don't think you need the DSP (which you could probably benefit from), then go another direction. But, like I just said, 99% of application could benefit from some form of DSP, so it's not a bad idea.

I think you're headed in a good direction, and I'm glad we can help. Keep up the good work, and don't be afraid to ask questions.


I promise to learn how to properly use the built-in DSP and use it. Smile

These forums and the helpful/knowledgeable members are the greatest I've found onLine.

Thanks everyone,
Shad
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Jeff Ekstrand

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2008, 06:06:06 pm »

Quote:

According to Shure, the SM57 uses an r57 cartridge whereas the SM58 uses an r59 cartridge. Now, maybe these cartridges are interchangeable, but wouldn't they be producing/presenting sound differently? Here are two PDF's (1MB each) with potentially beneficial information: SM57 User Guide & SM58 User Guide. They both have slightly different Polar Patterns, but I'm not sure how to read them. Can you explain to me in a few words how to read frequencies or point me to a good site?

You raise an interesting point. I've never looked into the actual cartridge specs for these two models, I was simply going off of what the guys at Shure (and a few great engineers I know) have said. I had a conference attendee ask what he should do aout getting his church to approve a purchase of a Beta57 instead of a Beta58 because he knew it would sound better on a guitar amp, but they wouldn't do it. In the expert panel for that session, we had a guy who was on the design team for the Beta series mics, and he told the guy to order a Beta57 grill and put it on the mic, because they're the same element. As far as the SM series, there are small differences, but what you see in the diagrams on the site is primarily due to the grill differences. I'd have to look at the specs for those two cartridges to see exactly how different the two are.

Quote:

I have always found human psycology fascinating and this is a prime example that you mentioned. Will definitely keep this in mind.

I always like to do little social experiments using church congregations as my guinea pigs... I mean... wait... I would never experiment on a client... Smile Over the years I've made conscious decisions to mix in certain ways and see if I get an overwhelmingly different reaction. Sure, I'm a dork, but I've learned a thing or two just from toying with peoples' senses. And, really, what they don't know has never hurt them. I know how to avoid disaster, and I know how to mix in many ways without it sounding "bad." It's just a matter of figuring-out if I can put a finger on what makes each congregation tick. If they get too many complaints that it's too loud, but the church is only running 85dB, then I have fun coming in a experimenting until I minimize the complaints. Smile The speakers are the same thing as a drum kit or an electric guitar amp. People will simply see them on stage and the music will already seem louder to them, even if the amp is off or the drums are V-Drums. Fortunately it's becoming a little more mainstream and we don't get as many people telling us that we can't worship if there are drums because they're not a sacred instrument... like the piano, since the piano was obviously around during the life of Christ, and therefore is more worthy of worship music than a guitar or drums. Smile
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Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Shad Hall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2008, 07:12:54 pm »

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 18:06

Quote:

According to Shure, the SM57 uses an r57 cartridge whereas the SM58 uses an r59 cartridge. Now, maybe these cartridges are interchangeable, but wouldn't they be producing/presenting sound differently? Here are two PDF's (1MB each) with potentially beneficial information: SM57 User Guide & SM58 User Guide. They both have slightly different Polar Patterns, but I'm not sure how to read them. Can you explain to me in a few words how to read frequencies or point me to a good site?

You raise an interesting point. I've never looked into the actual cartridge specs for these two models, I was simply going off of what the guys at Shure (and a few great engineers I know) have said. I had a conference attendee ask what he should do aout getting his church to approve a purchase of a Beta57 instead of a Beta58 because he knew it would sound better on a guitar amp, but they wouldn't do it. In the expert panel for that session, we had a guy who was on the design team for the Beta series mics, and he told the guy to order a Beta57 grill and put it on the mic, because they're the same element. As far as the SM series, there are small differences, but what you see in the diagrams on the site is primarily due to the grill differences. I'd have to look at the specs for those two cartridges to see exactly how different the two are.


Hmm, I would like to delve into this topic a bit more if you don't mind.  So you're saying that due to the shape and contour of the mic grills this is the reigning(?) factor in determing sound wave flow/direction?  So in essence, I could order a SM58 and use a SM57 grill to achieve a similar effect of the SM57? and again I say, "hmm...". Smile

Next question which may have a host of answers (and maybe I'm just getting way too technical): should I simple save money and order SM58's and use grills from the SM57's? Secondly, but more importantly, can you hear a difference in quality between the SM and Beta models?


Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 18:06

Fortunately it's becoming a little more mainstream and we don't get as many people telling us that we can't worship if there are drums because they're not a sacred instrument... like the piano, since the piano was obviously around during the life of Christ, and therefore is more worthy of worship music than a guitar or drums. Smile



roflol @ piano being around during the time of Christ. Please read all sarcasm into this: The difference between the two instruments is that drums play a "syncopated" beat and that is the same beat the African natives use to call up the evil spirits unlike the piano which follows a different time signature. LOL

Thanks,
Shad

P.s.
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

David Sumrall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2008, 07:38:17 pm »

Hey Shad,

Great stuff!

Sounds like you've been looking forward to some upgrades for a while.

On the console having more room to grow is definitely a good thing.
Have you considered a little digital desk like a litle o1vcm or something. Not as many inputs as your plan but it would have more things built into the desk like reverb, compressors, and recall of settings etc. Only 12 mic pre's in those 16 channels. It would definitely be a step up from what you have in channel count now but might not be enough later on.

Do you think a larger booth space is going to be an issue?

On the snake, is 16 on the stage with 4 returns going to be enough long term?? Don't forget to plan where to locate the amp. If you put it on the stage or close then what you have could work. But if you put the amp in the booth then you would need a snake specifically for running power down it. My preference would be having the amp by the stage.

On the mics the 58's or Beta 58's with 57's should do you just fine. As others have said not a lot of need for extra winds screens on the 58's and Beta 58's inside. New mics would be a definite no mater how much money you end up getting.

Don't forget to plan for more mic cable if you are adding inputs on the stage.

On the speakers, though i do love the plant, like Jeff said some smaller boxes, maybe white if you could wall mount them or hang them on the ceiling etc. Some EV Zx3's would be much smaller and have plenty of output for your little room.

Maybe some nice wall mounts that could help you get the boxes up away from the people a little more on the one side and help to get a better coverage angle etc.

You could come back later and add some subs if you like!

Good luck!

David
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David Sumrall
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Gateway Church
Soutlake Texas
GatewayPeople.com

Jeff Ekstrand

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2008, 07:38:44 pm »

Well, technically, yes, you could use a 57 grill on a 58. However, the grills on SM57 are not removable, and thus are not interchangeable. So, while the Beta series all have removable grills (I've never thought to try switching an 87 and a 58 grill to see what happens, never needed to) and the B57 and B58 are interchangeable in grills, the SMs are slightly different. I have, on occasion, used a 58 without it's grill like I use a 57 on guitar cabs, percussion, even a snare drum if I'm daring enough to put an unprotected mic in the line of fire for a blow from a stick.

I get my 57's and 58's for the same price, so I don't know that you'd save much money in the long run even if you did go that route. Plus, a 58 with it's grill on is nearly indestructible by normal human usage, whereas a 58 without its grill is infinitely more fragile. I would only do that in a pinch, right-tool-for-the-job, situation.
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Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Shad Hall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2008, 08:18:45 pm »

David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38

Hey Shad,

Great stuff!

Sounds like you've been looking forward to some upgrades for a while.

On the console having more room to grow is definitely a good thing.
Have you considered a little digital desk like a litle o1vcm or something. Not as many inputs as your plan but it would have more things built into the desk like reverb, compressors, and recall of settings etc. Only 12 mic pre's in those 16 channels. It would definitely be a step up from what you have in channel count now but might not be enough later on.

Do you think a larger booth space is going to be an issue?

On the snake, is 16 on the stage with 4 returns going to be enough long term?? Don't forget to plan where to locate the amp. If you put it on the stage or close then what you have could work. But if you put the amp in the booth then you would need a snake specifically for running power down it. My preference would be having the amp by the stage.



Oh Yes! I've wanted an upgrade for a long time. I've been involved with churches of "small church" mentality much of my life and I want to see some praise and worship dedication to God than us settling for the stupid theory of "well, they're just volunteers and we have to work with what we've got", which is pathetic, because you should be giving your all to God. </rant> Very Happy Now, I realize that the mechanics alone will not change the people, but great things are happening in our church as the people are finally at a place of allowing God to work in their lives. I'm getting my part ready. Smile

There is a ProCo StageMaster 16/4 TRS snake on the stage right now, so adding another 16/4 will work just fine.

As for the amp, I see what you mean and I haven't thought about it. I would love to keep of the equipment together, but I understand your side as well. * Currently undecided ... convince me * Smile

David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38



On the mics the 58's or Beta 58's with 57's should do you just fine. As others have said not a lot of need for extra winds screens on the 58's and Beta 58's inside. New mics would be a definite no mater how much money you end up getting.

Don't forget to plan for more mic cable if you are adding inputs on the stage.



So new mic cables are a must? Suggest a brand, but more importantly, a model. I know that Monster Cables are popular, but there are many different models and thus also pricing scenarios.

David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38



On the speakers, though i do love the plant, like Jeff said some smaller boxes, maybe white if you could wall mount them or hang them on the ceiling etc. Some EV Zx3's would be much smaller and have plenty of output for your little room.

Maybe some nice wall mounts that could help you get the boxes up away from the people a little more on the one side and help to get a better coverage angle etc.

You could come back later and add some subs if you like!

Good luck!

David

You like that plant too? It's imported plastic from China, I think. Laughing I wish it would die.

I like your idea about subs later on and will be back for that topic sometime.

Thanks for your time,
Shad
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

Shad Hall

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Re: New Sound System
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2008, 08:27:01 pm »

David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38



Do you think a larger booth space is going to be an issue?


Absolutely! Smile  Can you suggest a site I can find an assortment of desk options? I have only found two desks thus far fro $1k & 2k respectively, which is too much.  But I do want everything to be mounted for various reasons (that are probably obvious to you).  

Also, regarding surge protectors, we have one and being in Sacramento, CA, we really don't have a need for it as we don't have lightening storms or brown outs like LA. But being in the computer business, I know the importance of them. Do they get suggested to other newbies on this forum?

Peace,
Shad
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Shad Hall
Live Sound Tech
Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S
Elim Trinity Church - A&H GL2800
Sacramento, CA

"I'm an idealist. Get used to me wanting something better."

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: New Sound System
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2008, 08:27:01 pm »


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