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Author Topic: Countryman problem & omni vs cardoid  (Read 2397 times)

Aaron McQueen

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Countryman problem & omni vs cardoid
« on: August 24, 2008, 02:39:10 pm »

Our pastor showed up last week with a countryman.  I knew we had one, but I had never seen it.  Apparently he kept in his office.  Usually he uses a lapel.  These are ULXP wireless packs.

Anyway I wasn't running sound last week, but I was in the service and I noticed it didn't sound quite right.  There was some weird phasing sound and sometimes it was cutting in and out.  I got there early this morning as it was my Sunday and I grabbed the mic to see what was going on.  I was having similar problems and it seemed somewhat intermittent.  It was not a wireless problem as I put a lapel on the pack and it worked fine.  Does this sound like a cable problem?  Or is the mic broken?

Also I noticed the countryman is a cardioid.  I've always used omni's for pastors in the past.  When should a cardioid headset be used over a omni?
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Doug Bishop

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Re: Countryman problem & omni vs cardoid
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2008, 05:31:24 pm »

Aaron McQueen wrote on Sun, 24 August 2008 14:39

Quote:

Our pastor showed up last week with a countryman.  I knew we had one, but I had never seen it.  Apparently he kept in his office.  Usually he uses a lapel.  These are ULXP wireless packs.


Just shows up with a mic that you had never seen? Did anyone on the team know he was going to do this?  Pastors need to be kept in line just like anyone else when it comes to tech.  Our pastor has been given his personal body pack transmitter with counrtyman OMNI attached with explicit instructions that he is to keep it only for his use.  That means when he is out of town and one of the other pastors is going to preach...the transmitter is locked in his drawer.  This took a couple of tries but he got it and understands that we can accomodate pastoral needs.  He is also very good about doing a sound check each and every Sunday morning in BOTH of the areas that he will be preaching.  We do a traditional service in our older 250 seat sanctuary and contemp services in our gym/temporary multi purpouse area.  We have a dedicated receiver for him in BOTH areas set to the same frequency.  He would never ever just show up with a different mic.  This guy is fantastic...supports the tech team fully.  He has also been trained to come to us each week for a freshly charged battery.  Shortly after he arrived at our church he had a battery die on him near the end of a service.  He then told us that where he came from there was always someone available to run him up a battery if that happened.  I was just in the process of ordering up some decent rechargables and chargers and informed him that this wouldn't be the case.  He would always start with a fresh fully charged battery and keep a charger with 4 to rotate in his office.  When his charger recently passed on....(possibly due to one of his kids trying to charge their own batteries on his charger) I went to the "come and get your battery for sound check" method.

BTW we use all omnis and since our pastor has a very strong voice we use the purple (very low sensitivity) banded mic for him.



Quote:

Also I noticed the countryman is a cardioid.  I've always used omni's for pastors in the past.  When should a cardioid headset be used over a omni?



I just recently added 4 new ULXP systems to the building, replacing 4 older UC Shure systems...2 of which were used for the pastor as dedicated systems.  I almost ordered a Countryman directional (cardioid) mic to go withe these but my supplier told me that I was about to make a big mistake.  Well my plan was to try it and see but he told me that they are far less forgiving if the placement is not exactly right.  Like I said, our pastor is fantastic about following instructions and sound checks and the like but all too often he ends the day with the mic element just a smidge too far from his face or too far out front.  I suspect that is some of what you are dealing with on your pastor.  Probably some type of comb filtering.  You or someone with the kahunas to do so  Very Happy  needs to order up an omni to fit his voice, walk up to him on Sunday morning or earlier and lovingly remove it from his posession, give him the new one and ask how many other tech toys he has in his office that you should know about.

Take charge of the situation...in love naturally.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Countryman problem & omni vs cardioid
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2008, 05:38:41 pm »

Aaron McQueen wrote on Sun, 24 August 2008 14:39

Our pastor showed up last week with a countryman.  I knew we had one, but I had never seen it.  Apparently he kept in his office.  Usually he uses a lapel.  These are ULXP wireless packs.

Anyway I wasn't running sound last week, but I was in the service and I noticed it didn't sound quite right.  There was some weird phasing sound and sometimes it was cutting in and out.  I got there early this morning as it was my Sunday and I grabbed the mic to see what was going on.  I was having similar problems and it seemed somewhat intermittent.  It was not a wireless problem as I put a lapel on the pack and it worked fine.  Does this sound like a cable problem?  Or is the mic broken?

Also I noticed the countryman is a cardioid.  I've always used omni's for pastors in the past.  When should a cardioid headset be used over a omni?

It is critical with standard E6 boom mics to glue or tape the mic in position. Because the mic is used so close to the mouth, any movement of the mic will greatly effect the level due to inverse square law. With just one ear loop the mic position on a standard E6 is very floppy. The headband accessory that goes over both ears will help a lot. This is doubly important with the cardioid version, as the mic's performance is dependent on being placed within an area about the size of a quarter right at the corner of the mouth. While the omni will work fine set up a little farther away, the omni won't. It will start to sound thin as it moves away from the mouth. The cardioid version is also pretty sensitive to wind noise, both from nose and mouth breath, as well as wind from head movement. We tried the cardioid DPAs for a recording recently, and had to return the 6 mics we bought because they were unusable due to wind noise.

I would get the Countryman headbands, or switch to DPA mics.

Mac
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Doug Bishop

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Re: Countryman problem & omni vs cardioid
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2008, 06:01:16 pm »

Mac Kerr wrote on Sun, 24 August 2008 17:38

Aaron McQueen wrote on Sun, 24 August 2008 14:39

Our pastor showed up last week with a countryman.  I knew we had one, but I had never seen it.  Apparently he kept in his office.  Usually he uses a lapel.  These are ULXP wireless packs.

Anyway I wasn't running sound last week, but I was in the service and I noticed it didn't sound quite right.  There was some weird phasing sound and sometimes it was cutting in and out.  I got there early this morning as it was my Sunday and I grabbed the mic to see what was going on.  I was having similar problems and it seemed somewhat intermittent.  It was not a wireless problem as I put a lapel on the pack and it worked fine.  Does this sound like a cable problem?  Or is the mic broken?

Also I noticed the countryman is a cardioid.  I've always used omni's for pastors in the past.  When should a cardioid headset be used over a omni?

It is critical with standard E6 boom mics to glue or tape the mic in position. Because the mic is used so close to the mouth, any movement of the mic will greatly effect the level due to inverse square law.
Quote:

With just one ear loop the mic position on a standard E6 is very floppy. The headband accessory that goes over both ears will help a lot.


Note that there is a difference between the E6 and E6i.  The E6 is much stiffer and better accomodates a single user such as a pastor entrusted with the care of his own mic as this pastor seems to be.  The E6i is more easily bent and re-bent to fit multiple users and also has a thicker/softer silicone coating around the ear.  We let our pastor use the E6i because of the extra comfort and also because he is so faithful to support our team...otherwise I might just stick him with the less comfortable E6  Twisted Evil   I did pick up a pair of the adjustable bands but was waiting till fall to press them into service when I have a family ministries team doing regular thursday nite programs with an ever changing cast of characters using 8 or more wireless mics.  There is often someone with a weird ear that just has trouble keeping the mic where it ought to be.  I just might try one on the big guy now that you reminded me about them.



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Mac Kerr

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Quote boxes
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 06:10:42 pm »

Doug Bishop wrote on Sun, 24 August 2008 18:01

Mac Kerr wrote on Sun, 24 August 2008 17:38

Aaron McQueen wrote on Sun, 24 August 2008 14:39

Our pastor showed up last week with a countryman.  I knew we had one, but I had never seen it.  Apparently he kept in his office.  Usually he uses a lapel.  These are ULXP wireless packs.

Anyway I wasn't running sound last week, but I was in the service and I noticed it didn't sound quite right.  There was some weird phasing sound and sometimes it was cutting in and out.  I got there early this morning as it was my Sunday and I grabbed the mic to see what was going on.  I was having similar problems and it seemed somewhat intermittent.  It was not a wireless problem as I put a lapel on the pack and it worked fine.  Does this sound like a cable problem?  Or is the mic broken?

Also I noticed the countryman is a cardioid.  I've always used omni's for pastors in the past.  When should a cardioid headset be used over a omni?

It is critical with standard E6 boom mics to glue or tape the mic in position. Because the mic is used so close to the mouth, any movement of the mic will greatly effect the level due to inverse square law.
Quote:

With just one ear loop the mic position on a standard E6 is very floppy. The headband accessory that goes over both ears will help a lot.


Note that there is a difference between the E6 and E6i.  The E6 is much stiffer and better accomodates a single user such as a pastor entrusted with the care of his own mic as this pastor seems to be.  The E6i is more easily bent and re-bent to fit multiple users and also has a thicker/softer silicone coating around the ear.  We let our pastor use the E6i because of the extra comfort and also because he is so faithful to support our team...otherwise I might just stick him with the less comfortable E6  Twisted Evil   I did pick up a pair of the adjustable bands but was waiting till fall to press them into service when I have a family ministries team doing regular thursday nite programs with an ever changing cast of characters using 8 or more wireless mics.  There is often someone with a weird ear that just has trouble keeping the mic where it ought to be.  I just might try one on the big guy now that you reminded me about them.





Hey Doug, what's up with your quotes? Hit preview or spellcheck before submit, and you'll get a look at how your message is formatted before posting it.

The word "quote" inside square brackets starts a quote box and "/quote" inside square brackets closes the box.

Mac
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Doug Bishop

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Re: Quote boxes
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2008, 06:22:42 pm »

Quote
title=Mac Kerr wrote on Sun, 24 August 2008 18:10
Quote:

Hey Doug, what's up with your quotes? Hit preview or spellcheck before submit, and you'll get a look at how your message is formatted before posting it.
The word "quote" inside square brackets starts a quote box and "/quote" inside square brackets closes the box.

Mac


Sorry...I previewed it then went back and changed something...I think I deleted one of the quote markers in brackets.  I did an undo and changed some spelling error and failed to preview again.   Embarassed Sundays are always such long days for me....
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Christopher Buehring

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Re: Countryman problem & omni vs cardoid
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 01:31:15 pm »

From the countryman website

"What's more, the protective caps swap in seconds and allow you to select between cardioid and hypercardioid patterns for on-location fexibility."

http://www.countryman.com/store/product.asp?id=91&catid= 10

If there are two caps for the mic that change the pick-up pattern then what is the pattern when there is no cap on the mic?

Is it possible that having no cap or an improperly installed cap would distort the sound and cause "some weird phasing sound"?
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Dennis Huff

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Re: Countryman problem & omni vs cardoid
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2008, 08:45:15 am »

I noticed last night on the news (6oclock Fox News with Brent Hume) that he and the panel all had headworn mics.  I'm guessing this was to isolate them more in the noising environment of the convention.  I also noticed every single one of them had that mic placed in a different location in relation to their mouth.  These are omni's I'm guessing.  What does this example say about mic placement?  I could not notice a difference in voice level between the panel.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Countryman problem & omni vs cardioid
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 12:49:01 pm »

Dennis Huff wrote on Tue, 26 August 2008 08:45

I noticed last night on the news (6oclock Fox News with Brent Hume) that he and the panel all had headworn mics.  I'm guessing this was to isolate them more in the noising environment of the convention.  I also noticed every single one of them had that mic placed in a different location in relation to their mouth.  These are omni's I'm guessing.  What does this example say about mic placement?  I could not notice a difference in voice level between the panel.

You didn't notice a difference in level between the panel members because a soundman used a mixing console to make them match. If he was actively mixing them you might have heard a difference in background noise level between the mics, but with multiple mics on at once (so as to not upcut anyone) you would not hear the BG noise change. Had they been cardioid the different placement would have caused big changes in sound quality.

Mac
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Re: Countryman problem & omni vs cardioid
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 12:49:01 pm »


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