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Author Topic: Need advice on overhauling old system  (Read 8789 times)

Greg Hertfelder

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2008, 06:58:44 PM »

Quote:

What is the difference between "main out" and "aux send"?


The Main Out typically feeds the House amp/speaker system. An aux send enables you to configure an alternate mix independent of the House system.

Aux sends are typically used for stage monitor mixes and effects sends. A pre-fader aux send connected to a stage monitor system would result in consistent sound in the monitor, even though sound levels to the House may be changed. This makes sense for vocal mics and instrumentation.

A post-fader aux send connected to a stage monitor system would result in monitor volume levels that track with changes to the House system. This scenario makes sense for the playback of accompaniment tracks. If the console operator elects to fade out the track at the end of the song, you would want the track to fade out in the monitor, too, for a smooth cue.

On the Mackie 1604, Aux channels 1 and 2 can be changed between Pre-fader or Post-fader by selecting the "PRE" button just below the Aux 2 input chanel knob. A change in the button status affects both Auxes 1 and 2.
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Dan Kreider

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2008, 01:04:41 AM »

This info has been really helpful, thanks.  I feel like I am finally starting to make sense of the system.

Jeff, you mentioned it would be helpful to post a schematic so you could make recommendations.  I made one.  What's the best way to post it?

Regarding the size of the room and speaker recommendations - I don't have the dimensions and still haven't gotten around to measuring.  The picture I attached initially is pretty accurate.  The soundboard, where I took the pic, is right at the edge of the balcony overhang - it extends back about 20 feet or so behind the soundboard.  Does this give you an idea of dimensions?

Thanks
Dan
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Jeff Ekstrand

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2008, 07:40:08 PM »

If you can post your Schematic in a PDF? Try googling "Cute PDF Writer," it's a free PDF printer allowing you to use any program's print function and create a PDF.

As for dimensions, we could try having a go with arbitrary estimates, however, taking a 100' tape measure and getting within a few feet of the actual measurements, and then posting even a hand-drawn line drawing of the space would work wonders.
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Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Dan Kreider

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2008, 10:33:23 AM »

here's a schematic.  measurements asap.

thanks
Danindex.php/fa/273/0/
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Jeff Ekstrand

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2008, 12:28:49 PM »

Gah!!!

Well... it appears your sound room mixer is just routing your signal to multiple places, and is probably degrading your main mix by making your signal go through more conversions and such than necessary.

I would seriously look at eliminating that from your main mix signal chain if possible.

For starters, just put a pair of splitters in place that will send one side of your main mix to the sound room mixer (to feed your recordings), and the other side of the splitter will send straight through to your amps. Not ideal, but it should start to get the job done, and eliminate some unnecessary pieces of an already long signal chain. If you can come out of your booth mixer XLR, and go into your sound room mixer into actual channel strips instead of the aux return, then you'll gain some added flexibility in the current setup. Then you can take your record outs from either the main mix of the sound room mixer, or from a combination of auxes.

The next step is to take some form of line or matrix mixer to regulate how you control your record outs. Right now you're feeding it from and to so many different types of inputs, it's no wonder it took a schematic to be able to understand how all your routing goes.

Lastly, why are you feeding your choir two monitor feeds? It's pretty much redundant, and I'm doubting the different parts of the choir need different mixes. I would narrow them down to a single monitor feed, and leave the second aux open for either something immediate, or something that may come-up down the road.
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Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Dan Kreider

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2008, 03:01:59 PM »

Jeff,

Thanks.  I have some questions though:

to split the signal from house mixer main out, i would just get 2 Y-cables (1/4 male to two 1/4 females)?

You said "take XLR from house mixer."  There's no XLR output.  Do you mean main out from house to XLR channel input in soundroom?

What is a line or matrix mixer?  How would this help with the record outs?  I could just get rid of the soundroom mixer then, right?

To put the choir monitors on one feed, would I just split the signal from aux 1 with the same Y-cable I mentioned above?

Lastly...  I really can't ever do multitrack recording from the soundroom with this setup, can I?  I would need to record from the house mixer?

Thanks
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Dan Kreider

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2008, 03:17:42 PM »

Jeff, here are the measurements for the room, plus a pic from the platform (and there's another pic in my first post).
From this info, could you or anyone recommend what kind and placement of speakers we need?

The room is 66 ft. wide.  floor is 60 feet from back wall to platform, then platform is another 20 feet to back of choir
loft.  platform is about 2 ft. higher than floor.  you can see the balcony that curves around.  most people sit on the main
floor, but some sit in the balcony.  height is 20 ft (8 ft. under the balcony).  balcony extends 20 feet from back wall,
and 20 feet from side walls (although it tapers near the front).

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Dan Kreider

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2008, 03:26:19 PM »

...and here's a pic of the rear corner, under the balcony.
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Jeff Ekstrand

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2008, 11:27:27 PM »

Quote:

to split the signal from house mixer main out, i would just get 2 Y-cables (1/4 male to two 1/4 females)?

You said "take XLR from house mixer." There's no XLR output. Do you mean main out from house to XLR channel input in soundroom?

You could do 1/4" if you don't have XLR. Be sure that each component you use is using balanced, Tip-Ring-Sleeve 1/4" connectors (like stereo headphones). Your signal will make it from FOH to the PA cleaner that way. Your splitter could probably be in the sound room. Instead of plugging the main outs from the booth mixer into the sound room mixer, you would plug them into the single end of the splitter, then plug one split into the sound room mixer, and the other side of the split goes directly to the main amp.

Quote:

What is a line or matrix mixer? How would this help with the record outs? I could just get rid of the soundroom mixer then, right?

I would recommend a matrix mixer. It allows you to take one (or two inputs for your stereo recordings), and route each input to multiple destinations at different levels. Most of these can be found in small rackmount form-factors, so they're more convenient than a regular mixer sitting on a table. Plus, it's "the right tool for the job."

Quote:

To put the choir monitors on one feed, would I just split the signal from aux 1 with the same Y-cable I mentioned above?

That is one way to accomplish the goal, yes. Alternatively (and my preference) would be to take both speakers and connect them to the same output of the monitor amp, eliminating the need for two cable runs from FOH to the amp racks. You could use the second aux output to feed a separate monitor send, perhaps a monitor send to the sound room, or if you need another monitor feed for your band or any other musician, you would have one available. And, looking at previous posts, it could be used for that organ monitor... two birds with one stone, now we're getting somewhere! Smile

In general, splitting is not something I default to. The way your system is set-up, splitting your mains seems to be a good remedy for immediate problems (AKA, you don't have to rerun a bunch wire and redo a bunch of your system).

Quote:

Lastly... I really can't ever do multitrack recording from the soundroom with this setup, can I? I would need to record from the house mixer?

In order to do multitrack recording from your sound room mixer, you would need some form of good mic channel splitter on each input from the stage. If you have 16 channels running into the booth mixer, you would want 16 splitters (or enough splitters for everything you want to send to the sound room mixer). These are usually more complicated than what we're looking at to split your main feed. Typically you need something with isolation transformers to keep your signals properly balanced. Whirlwind and ProCo both make products, and if you want to go all-out, check-out Radial's 0X8 (droooooool). You would then run a snake, or individual mic lines from the splitters to both mixers, giving you two locations with separate mixes. If you did this, you could very much eliminate the split of your main mix to the sound room mixer, which makes me feel a lot better about signal routing. Smile Of course, the mic splitter solution is a much higher cost option, but would be a really powerful tool for your church. The only other downside I can think of is that you would want/need someone to mix the recordings, in addition to a separate person that would mix FOH (way too much for one person to be in two places mixing two different destinations).

As for the dimensions of the room, it sounds like you have a decent space, and there should be plenty of options. I would look into switching to a mono cluster system. Your room isn't extremely wide, and you're primarily micing spoken word (at least for live, your recordings may add additional inputs). Putting a mono point-source system above the pulpit gives a much more clear audio image coming off the stage. The voice appears to come from the same place the congregation will be looking.

Before suggesting specific makes and models, we should first discuss the goals of the church's audio, any "sacred cows" (i.e. we can't have speakers hanging more than 2' below the ceiling, they must be white, etc.),  and what type of budget you might be able to get in order to rig something center. There's a wide range of products at various price-points, it's more a matter of project management and church values that dictates whether or not a change from stereo (or multiple clusters) to a single, mono cluster will work. That's where consulting a local professional is in your best interest. You'll need a professional to do the rigging of a center cluster, and they'll be able to give you pricing, as well as recommend any specifics once they look at some finer details of your space.

On the plus side, I'm guessing you can probably fill most of your room without the need for delay speakers, which is a huge relief and will cut-down on costs.

Wow, this got long. Smile
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Jeff Ekstrand

Technical Director, North Shore Campus
Willow Creek Community Church
Northfield, IL

Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2008, 12:52:52 PM »

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Wed, 23 July 2008 17:28


Well... it appears your sound room mixer is just routing your signal to multiple places, and is probably degrading your main mix by making your signal go through more conversions and such than necessary.


Agreed.

My first (slightly shocked) reaction was that they're using up a whole mixer to get the function of either a splitter cable or a distribution amp. The big exposure of the mixer is more knobs and buttons in the signal path to the mains, more things to go wrong, uselessly adding no less than 2 (channel fader, main) and up to 4 (channel trim, channel fader, group, main) volume controls in series. Then there's all those gain stages set to cancel each other out, and all we need is unity gain.

Then I noticed that they are also using that remote mixer to mix in pre-recorded sources.  There's an instant potential problem if they ever want the choir to sing with a prerecorded track. No way to route the track to the choir monitors!

Arrrghh!
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Re: Need advice on overhauling old system
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2008, 12:52:52 PM »


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