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[Lasse Lasanen]

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Wed, 11 June 2008 06:44

... I kindly point him to my OSHA Noise Exposure table (90dB for 8 hours, 95dB for 4 hours continuously). ...

Some two years ago the SPL was a topic in my church, but now we have agreed on 85 dBA(slow) limit ... which is pretty loud if You make it seem/sound loud!
Just use compression in main mix and (whenever possible) hefty subharmonics on the subwoofer

[Don Boomer]

Yes ... setting proper gain structure helps avoid all kinds of problems ... but it has ZERO effect on whether or not you get feedback.  They are not related AT ALL.

Feedback happen for one reason ... that is that you cross the unity loop gain (which has nothing to do with "unity" on your mixer).  That's the basic Nyquest Stability Criteria.

It's all about level ... not the quality of that level.

[Jeff Ekstrand]

Quote:

eff, guys.... Garth Brooks, a head worn, over 300,000 watts out front, Garth flying on a harness over the audience back and forth 20 to 30 feet in front of the house system and no feedback. Find someone who knows what they're doing and ask them some questions. Ask the pro's. I love all you people in Christ, and for what you do for the Lord, but I'm so frustrated in the blind leading the blind in church audio... I just can't stand it. I'm not speaking specifically about this forum, I mean in general... all over the country. Don't get me wrong. Not all "professional" sound companies know what they're doing, either! I just fixed a $100,000 mess that was installed at my church after my wife and I returned to the area after being away for 6 years. I couldn't believe what I heard when they flipped the switch! The company said they'd come back and fix it for around $3800.00. Let's just say "they're a huge company located in PA". Longer story short, I had the Minister of Music get $1200.00 approved through the finance dept., told him to tell the 8 member sound crew I was charging that to fix the system so they would leave it alone after I fixed it, and on the completion of their 2 hour Audio 101 training course I gave them a few weeks later, he asked me if he could tell them that I was giving it all back to the church and I said, "yes". How many of you guys that "do" know, have ever eq'd something properly, just to come back after the crew for the 2nd service put it back to what "they" think was right? Frustrating, isn't it. Bless you hearts, but if you're struggling with sound at your church, call in a professional, get him to train the staff, do what he says, and last but not least.... there is no "tinny knob or muddy button" on a board! lol Love In Christ, Ron Shawver Trinity Media Group

Punch,

Please read the rules and use your real name when you post on this forum, just like the rest of us.

[Phil Rowley]

Okay, back on topic  

1. Don't camp out at the board during rehearsals.  TALK to your vocalists and musicians and find out if their mix is okay.  If you're FOH, walk the room and ask for feedback from those
who may be listening.

2. On time is late.  Get there in plenty of time to setup for the day's services or event.

3. Sometimes its okay to shut off the meter and go with your gut feeling for room SPL. (Just don't get carried away  

4. Educate the end user about the proper use of gear.  This means everything from the guy who holds the mic 50 feet away to the vocalist that twists the antenna on the IEM pack as they shove it into their pocket.

5. Where applicable, always check your drum mic placement.  Explain to the drummer the
proper location for each mic and why.

6. If you don't know something, then ask someone who has the answer.  Don't pretend to know it all.

7. Respect your musicians and vocalists and they will respect you in return.  (Remember this rule, even when the new guitar player forgets his ear buds for the xth
week in a row  

8. Know your tunes in advance and who is leading them (vocally and instrumentally).

9. Set limits on your volunteer time commitments.  Just because you're a sound team of 1 or 2 doesn't mean you have to be there every weekend.  The key to longevity is knowing where to set this limit and stick with it.

10. Always use your real, full name when posting on this forum  LOL..sorry, couldn't resist!

[Jeff Ekstrand]

Quote:

10. Always use your real, full name when posting on this forum LOL..sorry, couldn't resist!

Awesome.

[Arnold B. Krueger]

10 rules to follow when doing live sound at church.

(1) First and foremost we are here to serve God.

(2) The congregation is the physical entity through which our  technical and spiritual service to God passes

(3) Assisting the presenters communicate with the congregation is the primary means by which technologists serve God.

(4) Depending on the church, the worship director or the senior pastor provides the technicans and artists who lead worship with human leadership. They are the primary custodians and interpreters of the church's vision for worship and service.

(5) Technology is supposed to serve spiritual needs, not vice-versa.

(6) For the most part, technology is only apparent to the congregation when it causes problems. Therefore technologists can only make mistakes, as far as they are concerned.

(7) How technologists serve is at least as important as the outcomes they obtain.

( In worship, the words are more important than the music or the pictures. Therefore intelligibility is more important than aesthetics.

(9) Never presume malace when simple incompetence or a lack of involvement is a sufficient explanation. It may well be true that nobody in your church, not even your immediate supervisor understands what it takes for you to do your job.

(10) Your reward in heaven for your Godly service will be sure, even if performing your day-to-day Godly duties pretty much sucks.

[Jeff Ekstrand]

Quote:

( In worship, the words are more important than the music or the pictures. Therefore intelligibility is more important than aesthetics.

Would video and lighting guys agree with this thought? I personally believe that lighting, video, and audio, all three together, contribute to the worship equally. If there is a problem with any of the three, then production is potentially hindering the worship "process."

I think being able to see the stage (lighting), see a DVD/read words (video), as well as hearing what's being said/played are no more important than each other.

Not to discount the importance of audio, I am an audio guy through and through. I don't think we should think of ourselves too highly, though. If we take ourselves too seriously, we'll only run into problems.

I love the rest of your post, the servant attitude is HUGE with production folks. It's hard to server when we really can only make mistakes.

[Arnold B. Krueger]

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 06:56

Quote: ( In worship, the words are more important than the music or the pictures. Therefore intelligibility is more important than aesthetics. Would video and lighting guys agree with this thought?

Since video, lighting, sound and Powerpoint are integrated in our church, the distinction you suggest catches me by surprise. Expecially since both our developers and the presenters are often the same people. IOW I produce videos and presentations, work up scenes for lighting, run the lighting board, edit audio, and mix live sound and video or direct them, for the same service.

Quote:

I personally believe that lighting, video, and audio, all three together, contribute to the worship equally.

I think that they work hand-in hand.

But, I'm close enough to the days when we didn't do that much with video, and had no dimmed or centrally-controlled lighting at all, to have a sense of priorities.

Besides, the connection between the word and the video is especially clear.

Quote:

If there is a problem with any of the three, then production is potentially hindering the worship "process."

Agreed.

Quote:

I think being able to see the stage (lighting), see a DVD/read words (video), as well as hearing what's being said/played are no more important than each other.

IOW, lighting, video, and sound can be equally important to getting the Word out. I don't see any disagreement here.

Quote:

Not to discount the importance of audio, I am an audio guy through and through. I don't think we should think of ourselves too highly, though. If we take ourselves too seriously, we'll only run into problems.

Fact is that the average church has an attendance of about 100 people, and in many cases the only technology being used for worship is sound. Yes, there is lighting but it is architectural lighting at a fixed intensity, not the kind of dimmed, centrally-controlled, worship-coordinated lighting that I think of when I think of the use of lighting in worship.

Quote:

I love the rest of your post, the servant attitude is HUGE with production folks. It's hard to serve when we really can only make mistakes.

Yes, the "only mistakes are visible to the congregation" rule is very humbling. It's especially humbling when the most vocal complainers couldn't even turn the technology on, let alone minister with it.

[Jeff Ekstrand]

You raise good points about a majority of churches' lighting systems, and the volunteer staffing status of those same churches. And, in those cases, you are right, the sound is more important than extremely detailed aesthetics. If a mic cable is out of place, less people are going to notice than if the microphone connected to it sounds nasty.

And, while I make more jokes than is probably healthy about the rivalry between lighting and audio guys, that statement caught my eye because we're dealing with something along those lines right now. We have an amazing lighting rig for a church our size, and we are far from using it to its full potential. It's almost as if the mentality is that we're either "good enough", or that it's not as important as it really is... we're having a hard time communicating to the lead lighting designer (a volunteer) that the level of the house lights during various service elements can have a huge effect on the response of a congregation. Yesterday was a bit rough.

[Tim Padrick]

In times of old, additional drama was injected into church music by use of the big organ pipes - one could feel His presence.

We don't have that these days.  The drama must come from our other senses.  The words are a part, and the lighting is a part.  Optimally, the lighting should make the sanctuary disappear from the equation so that the congregation is taken somewhere else.

[ProSoundWeb Community]