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[Brad Weber]

Tim Padrick wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 08:51

Brad Weber wrote on Fri, 18 April 2008 21:54 Michael Palmer wrote on Fri, 18 April 2008 15:42 Would you like to have a system that is "scalable", I.E. can grow as the church grows, with the Yamaha you are at a fixed amount of inputs and outputs. What???  With three card slots and a variety of I/O cards available the M7CL is definitely "scalable". It depends upon on what you mean by scalable.  If one means mix channels, on the M7 you get 48+4.  Period.  On an LS9-32, you can bump that up to 64 by using external preamps and/or MY cards.  On a 01V96 you can bump its 16 up to 40 or so.

The original comment specifically defined "scalable" as the number of inputs and outputs.

[Mac Kerr]

Brad Weber wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 13:41

The original comment specifically defined "scalable" as the number of inputs and outputs.

In this age of digital consoles we need to remember there is a difference between input or output ports and input or output control channels. They may not be the same numbers.

Mac

[Brad Weber]

Mac Kerr wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 17:41

Brad Weber wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 13:41 The original comment specifically defined "scalable" as the number of inputs and outputs. In this age of digital consoles we need to remember there is a difference between input or output ports and input or output control channels. They may not be the same numbers.

Nothing really new to this concept, I've done numerous analog system with much greater physical I/O than the console offers, several theatres with 100 to 200+ mic inputs and a 48 channel console.  The only difference with digital consoles is potentially replacing some of the physical patching of those analog systems with virtual patching.  At least to me the bigger difference is that other than 'shortloading' consoles, the physical I/O of analog consoles was rarely scalable.

[Mac Kerr]

Brad Weber wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 22:05

Mac Kerr wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 17:41 Brad Weber wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 13:41 The original comment specifically defined "scalable" as the number of inputs and outputs. In this age of digital consoles we need to remember there is a difference between input or output ports and input or output control channels. They may not be the same numbers. Nothing really new to this concept, I've done numerous analog system with much greater physical I/O than the console offers, several theatres with 100 to 200+ mic inputs and a 48 channel console.  The only difference with digital consoles is potentially replacing some of the physical patching of those analog systems with virtual patching.  At least to me the bigger difference is that other than 'shortloading' consoles, the physical I/O of analog consoles was rarely scalable.

It's true that there have always been systems with lots of I/O capability, but it is not usual for these systems to have 200 mic pres and a 48 input console. The difference is that some users are looking at a digital console and equating it with an analog console, when it should viewed more as a system of I/O and control. When introducing new users to digital consoles I find this a concept that is not that easy for them to grasp. That is why I try to always use the terms control channel and I/O ports.

Mac

[ak909]

Hojoon Chang wrote on Sun, 20 April 2008 20:44

Bryan James wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 23:06 Hojoon Chang wrote on Wed, 16 April 2008 21:06 I only saw iLive in the Show, but couple of concert operation, installation projects with M7CL. I prefer with Yamaha. They make almost everything by themself. From plastic to os. I know most of my clients saids that 'please excludes XP embedded ones', I agree. I'm not sure what os is embedded in iLive. If you don't like Yamaha, find something with linux. Midas! But thats off topic. I kinda/sorta like the DM2000 but it just a waste of features really. Very little WOW factor. The m7 is a nice board 48 pres with card slot to allow a somewhat small amount of channels to be added, but if your running 50+ channels I would recommend you go with something that has greater expandable configurations. iLive does suffer from the same issue tho not as common as with M7s. DM2K if mainly for recordong or post. it's hard for church with volunteers. It almost scares people. Anyway, yamaha is a company which all other manufacturer's public enemy no.1, agree? There was over 8000 M7CL in the world before Mar. It was from Yamaha. I guess 10,000 for now. There must some reason, right?

I completely agree.

Yes, Yamaha is a good company -for the price- and make great products -for the price-. They have a great thing with the M7. It won the TEC award which blew me away as it was lined up with consoles from Euphonix and Digidesign. That does say alot. But there is a point where the M7 just doesn't stack up; Most of our volunteer engineers are engineers by profession who love the M7 but we know that there is better stuff out there (i.e the Innovason sy80 is the M7 on crack)and we know that for OUR needs the M7 really doesn't cut it. We have 2 DM-2000's and 1 DM-1000 and we are not thrilled about them. I'm not surprised they are discountinued.

[ak909]

Mac Kerr wrote on Fri, 18 April 2008 11:48

Bryan James wrote on Fri, 18 April 2008 02:06 I kinda/sorta like the DM2000 but it just a waste of features really. Very little WOW factor. The m7 is a nice board 48 pres with card slot to allow a somewhat small amount of channels to be added, but if your running 50+ channels I would recommend you go with something that has greater expandable configurations. What features are a waste? Why do you need "WOW factor"? The  M7 series is not really expandable at all. There are 3 slots, so you can add insert I/O, or use remote mic pres, but the 48 mono and 4 stereo control channels is all you get. DM2000 can be expanded to 96 inputs via the 6 card slots. Both are less than half the cost of an iLive system. Yes, the iLive can expand more than either of the low cost Yamahas, you pay for that capability. They are not comparable consoles. Mac

-Useless Surround Panner.
-Mono busses which we can't use.
-Mix Controls which have not point for live.
-Transport controls which we can't route out.
-C/R controls which were intended for a recording enviorment.

It's not Yamaha's fault. It's the fault bad decisions made by our prior leaders.

[Jeff Ekstrand]

How long ago was the DM2k purchased? Until the 5D came out, there was really no readily affordable digital console (at least from Yamaha) that was made for live applications. Not even Mackie had something digital outside the studio world... and I'd put Mackie in a slightly (or extremely) different level than Yamaha (spark debate? why not?).

It could just be that the church leaders made the best purchase they could at the time. At least they didn't get an 02R for live... AHHHHHHH!!! Least favorite console EVER!!!

But I agree that in the live world, the DM2k has you paying for features you will rarely, if ever, use. Again, right tool for the job.

Ultimately, both the iLive and the 5D (which we've all agreed is a closer comparison to the iLive) are good consoles that are seeing success in the industry. In the end, I think it comes down to personal preference. The only reason that the Yamahas might have an edge on this forum is because they've been around digital longer than A&H (which actually could be their biggest selling point). But I haven't seen anyone post anything on here about "absolutely don't use [a] or ."

[Mac Kerr]

Bryan James wrote on Mon, 28 April 2008 23:55

-Useless Surround Panner. -Mono busses which we can't use. -Mix Controls which have not point for live. -Transport controls which we can't route out. -C/R controls which were intended for a recording enviorment.

Yeah the panner is almost useless, I've only used it once or twice on a theater show, it would probably save $5 to eliminate it, and it's not really in the way.

What "mono" buses which you can't use? Every bus on the console can be linked to its neighbor to make a stereo pair. The 4 Matrix mixes are only stereo.

Transport controls may be useless to you in a live situation, but I have used them for multitrack playback of sweetening tracks. I have had to create a similar feature on a PM1D that doesn't have them.

CR outs can be used for nearfield monitors and pfl.

If you think anyone is going to build a console that fits your exact requirements you may have a long wait.

Mac

[ak909]

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 April 2008 11:41

How long ago was the DM2k purchased? Until the 5D came out, there was really no readily affordable digital console (at least from Yamaha) that was made for live applications. Not even Mackie had something digital outside the studio world... and I'd put Mackie in a slightly (or extremely) different level than Yamaha (spark debate? why not?). It could just be that the church leaders made the best purchase they could at the time. At least they didn't get an 02R for live... AHHHHHHH!!! Least favorite console EVER!!! But I agree that in the live world, the DM2k has you paying for features you will rarely, if ever, use. Again, right tool for the job. Ultimately, both the iLive and the 5D (which we've all agreed is a closer comparison to the iLive) are good consoles that are seeing success in the industry. In the end, I think it comes down to personal preference. The only reason that the Yamahas might have an edge on this forum is because they've been around digital longer than A&H (which actually could be their biggest selling point). But I haven't seen anyone post anything on here about "absolutely don't use [a] or ."

I'd say about 1-2 years ago. We would've benefited greatly from an analog console but most of our current techs weren't around the time of planning (most of our technical staff is quite new since we built our new facility).

Quote:

At least they didn't get an 02R for live

HAHAH!! Amen to that!!!!

[ak909]

Mac Kerr wrote on Tue, 29 April 2008 17:34

Bryan James wrote on Mon, 28 April 2008 23:55 -Useless Surround Panner. -Mono busses which we can't use. -Mix Controls which have not point for live. -Transport controls which we can't route out. -C/R controls which were intended for a recording enviorment. Yeah the panner is almost useless, I've only used it once or twice on a theater show, it would probably save $5 to eliminate it, and it's not really in the way. What "mono" buses which you can't use? Every bus on the console can be linked to its neighbor to make a stereo pair. The 4 Matrix mixes are only stereo. Transport controls may be useless to you in a live situation, but I have used them for multitrack playback of sweetening tracks. I have had to create a similar feature on a PM1D that doesn't have them. CR outs can be used for nearfield monitors and pfl. If you think anyone is going to build a console that fits your exact requirements you may have a long wait. Mac

Mac, I dunno about the wait. I would think it's more of like-

"If you think anyone is going to build a console that fits your exact requirements, you may need a bigger wallet."

Quote:

Every bus on the console can be linked to its neighbor to make a stereo pair.

I did not know that.
Thank you very much!

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