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[Alan Shelinbarger]

I recently upgraded our church system to a nice A&H Mixwiz 14:4:2, a QSC amp, and a Microboards CD burner. A simple system for a mostly narrative Lutheran service. I am more than willing to donate my time to run the system, record the entire service and make 20 - 30 copies per week (ASAP by the way). What I need to know is what to do about weddings and other special events. I'd like to hear what others do since I normally run a sound & light rental comp. this church thing is a little new to me

[Michael King]

Usually churches will add in a a tech charge (to pay you) with  the rental price of the church . I belive this is totally fair. As a volunteer i think you should do the best job possible to spead the word of God. With that said, weddings are not that. They are not your normal mission, therefore I belive you should be paid (unless you have a friendship and decide that you want to do it for free, dont let the church decide this for you either). Special events, based on my logic of spreading the gospel,i would say  it depends. How much time is dedicated to special events, or work, or the nature of the event. I say use your best judgment and dont let them take the work you do  for granted and walk all over you.

I guess now that i have moved into a position where i am getting compensated for my work it is hard to give you an exact answer. But what i said above was what i followed back a couple of years ago when i was just volunteering.

[Ray Cyr]

When I do special events that involve payment to the church for the services rendered, a part of that fee is sent my way.

[Michael King]

i need lessons, it took me a paragraph to say what you said in one sentence  

[Clayton Luckie]

I charge a tech fee for any event that is not an official ministry of our church.  Depending on the event, and how many techs are necessary to pull it off, the price varies.

Every once in a while, there is someone who doesnt want to pay.  I consider it a part of the rental fees for the facility, so I don't consider it negotiable.  I try to be protective of my time as well as that of my volunteers.  It is valuable, and deserves a fair wage for "outside" events.

cl

[Ivan Beaver]

If they don't want to pay, then they can bring their own, or do without.  It is their choice.

A person's time is worth payment of some type.  I agree that the regular churh activities are often considered part of your own little mission for God, but other activities take you away from your family and other household responsibilities and therefore should be compensated for.

How much is a different topic.

[Sam Hernandez]

Great topic!

My church pushes us (hugely) toward volunteerism, giving people a place to serve using their gifts sacrificially for their own spiritual health.  The disconnect in A/V is that something even as simple as a wedding (lapel mic and PowerPoint slide show) takes a rare person: a skilled engineer.

I posted on Craigslist to see what other engineers were charging for wedding gigs.  A bunch of them found the church's phone number and called about a job!  Oops.  That created a little panic down the hall.  Well, the average rate was $250 to $300.  A pretty good deal since a wedding is a 2 day event: rehearsal and wedding.

The benefit is that my bosses (pastors) understood what they were asking for.  For once.  Ha!  The cool thing is that a decent engineer volunteered to do weddings for us.  We pad in something small like $50 to say thank you.

Here's what I think (though I'm always open to have my mind changed):  we all need places to serve over and above for our own spiritual growth, even if it is just a wedding and serves as a gift to the bride and groom.  If you have a volunteer or can to it yourself then great.  If not then pay someone what they're worth.  Don't play into the cheapening of skilled work by pulling the religious card.

[John Ward]

"Don't play into the cheapening of skilled work by pulling the religious card." I second this sentiment. Volunteerism is one thing  - getting paid for your skills shouldn't be overshadowed by the concept.

Scripture supports and encourages prospering from honest work and ethical conduct. My opinion is that a church should not take for granted the skills, time and heart of its servants, but rather honor and reward them justly.

One would not expect a minister to perform a wedding and not receive a gratuity for doing so. Why shouldn't the audio or lighting guy? Would one expect a custodian to clean the wedding chapel or sanctuary for free?  No. Somehow the professions related to the arts - including technical - have come to be expected as a gift to be shared and not necessarily to be honored or rewarded monetarily.

All technical staff at my church is paid. There are no (technical) volunteers for a multitude of reasons, which I don't need to go into here. It is assumed that those individuals will give of their time, treasures  and talents as their hearts and the Holy Spirit leads them.

[Ira White]

Though I am compensated as a staff sound director, I or my volunteers are also compensated for weddings or special events outside of the church ministry. Same with pastor, organist or pianist, and wedding coordinator.

[Mike Sveda]

The church collects $100 for having me there to do the PA for a wedding.

[Ronnie Richardson]

If the person getting married is a member of our Church then we operate the equipment for free, being the newest and largest Church in the area, if they are not members then we charge for rehersal and the wedding.  From the looks of other posters it's not enough.  It is left up to the Techs working to accept it or not.  Most all the time it is donated back to the Tech Budget by the Techs.

We also don't charge for funerals.

We also host a Womens One Day Conference in the church and that is a ministry of the Church.  We do not "charge" for the use of the Team but are fed breakfast and lunch.  Of course it's at our own separate table waaaay in the back of the Fellowship Hall(for our protection).

[Brad Weber]

I think you need to consider what is being discussed.  There is a big difference between a situation where the sound system is part of the facility and someone having to bring in a system or supplement the installed system.  Some of the numbers quoted may be for those providing a system as well as an operator.

I also think the amount paid should reflect the requirements of the ceremony.  I've been to weddings with small orchestras and multiple vocalists and to ones with multiple music selections on CD as well as to ones that required just an omni lav on the minister that also picked up the bride and groom.  Are you required to be at rehearsal or not?  Is it a simple 30 minute ceremony or a 2 hour ceremony?  There is obviously a difference in the expertise and effort required and any payment should reflect this.

When I got married I actually had friends and coworkers volunteer to take care of audio, video and even editing.  It was not that I wanted to avoid paying the church personnel, but it is hard to say no to friends who wanted to take part and who were also experienced professionals at what they were doing.  Building a cost into the church rental for the use of the installed systems was fine, but building in a cost for the operators would have been inappropriate in this situation.

If you want to have a fixed fee, then there should be some guarantee of quality and willingness to work with the wedding party. If I was asked to pay a set fee, I would want to know who and what I was getting.  When one shops for thing like caterers, banquet halls, bands/DJs, flowers, etc. for a wedding, you get a chance to audition or preview the services and compare the prices, quality and fit.  But if the operator is assigned and has problems during rehearsal, what are the wedding party's choices?  If you are going to simply say this is what and who you have to use with no choice, then you should probably leave some room for the wedding party to determine the value.  

Overall, I think that having some flexibility and "buy in" from the wedding party certainly helps.  Maybe a suggested minimum payment with the ability to pay whatever you feel the service was worth.  This provides some incentive to give better than an operator half asleep from the late gig the night before and just trying to get by and can work out better for both sides.

[John Ward]

Perhaps I just don't get it. Does the church administrative staff work for free? The custodial staff? Music minister? How about the IT people? DO you go to the grocery store and haggle over the price of lettuce?

Regarding weddings - the bride and groom - or more likely the parents - have voluntarily shelled out thousands of dollars for the wedding - dresses, tuxes, rehearsal dinners, the church, the reception hall, the caterers.  Why should the technical support have to donate their services? Or even haggle over payment amount? Or worse yet - leave it to the wedding party to decide just how much those services are worth.

I think it's time church personel stopped short changing themselves. Church is, for better or worse, a business as well as a house of worship. It's perhaps the ugliest side of church, but it does not have to be. All but the smallest of 'country' churches should be paying technical support, particularly for the 'optional' non-worship events they chose to be a part of.

[Ira White]

Granted, compensation should have reasonable experience and skill behind it. If it's novice engineering, I would suggest a minimal fee of $25, and maybe an offer to forego it if there are problems with the sound services. (Though I have heard organists hit some pretty sour notes in their repertoire, and they probably took the check anyway.) Use your best judgement on that one.

We include rehearsal and provide a couple of CDs of the service (recording mix straight off the board) in our charge of $50. We charge $25 an hour for other outside events that need our sanctuary sound services. We do funerals no charge. That is not a good time to be adding more arrangements for the family.

[Michael King]

I mostly agree with what you say. as a technical staff is there to provide a service. If the church is being paid for use of the building then you can be guarentee that the pastor, janitor wedding planner and what not are also getting paid. its jsut on of those wedding expenses that will be there. member of the church or not. Somebody said consider it a wedding gift, i dont usually give gifts except to the ones that i know personally. i have only done two weddings where i have not been paid and that is becuse one was my brother and one was my friends. So i say you should always be paid for weddings even if it jsut to cover your expenses of travel food and what not. You make the decision of what is fair.

Special events are a diffrent story. If it is a church function be it your own discretion. if it is someone paying for your facilities then you get paid.


So basically it comes down to if any money is transfered you should reicive payment. If there is no money exhcanged then leave it up to your disctrtion.

[Brad Weber]

John Ward wrote on Tue, 30 January 2007 00:01

Regarding weddings - the bride and groom - or more likely the parents - have voluntarily shelled out thousands of dollars for the wedding - dresses, tuxes, rehearsal dinners, the church, the reception hall, the caterers.  Why should the technical support have to donate their services? Or even haggle over payment amount? Or worse yet - leave it to the wedding party to decide just how much those services are worth.

You are overlooking a major factor.  On every other one of the issues you note the wedding party usually has a choice.  They often even have a choice on aspects such as the pianist.  They can select the clothing, food service, reception hall, florist, etc. that they want and can control how much they spend and what they get.  Are you going to allow such a choice?  If I want, can I bring in my own tech personnel instead?  Can I select to not pay your fee not not have the service?  Do you offer different services?  If you do provide these options then that is business, with competition and options for the client.  If not, then it isn't at all the same as these other issues.

Many of you may not have the same perspective I do.  Our wedding was very simple and the only church technical system used was an omni lav on the pastor run through the house system.  No sound for rehearsal and all that was required for the wedding was leaving the console in the normal settings and simply turning it on.  Even if we had requires an operator, the church's normal sound system operator was a volunteer who really did not know what they were doing, but did well enough to get by and was very reluctant to give up his service to the church (one of those cases where what they had could have been a lot better, but it was acceptable and more acceptable to the members than essentially pushing out one of them from doing something they enjoyed).  Our service was also fairly short, our pastor's wife went into labor shortly before the ceremony and since the pastor decided to go ahead with our ceremony, we did what we could to get him out quickly!  I just can't see being required to pay for a technician who did nothing, especially as that cost would have had to have come out of some other part of our wedding budget.

I am not saying that tech staff should not get paid in general.  If you are asked to approach your effort as work, then it should be treated as work and you as part of the staff.  But if it is approached as being a volunteer, then it should be volunteer and that by definition means no compensation.

Do also consider the tax and legal implications related to this.  I can give you a gift easily with little issue but if you charge a fee you are operating a business and if you get paid through the church you are either an employee or subcontractor.  This is actually one practical reason why many churches use the "suggested honorarium" type approach rather than a set fee.

[Michael King]

Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 30 January 2007 10:40

.You are overlooking a major factor.  On every other one of the issues you note the wedding party usually has a choice.  They often even have a choice on aspects such as the pianist.  They can select the clothing, food service, reception hall, florist, etc. that they want and can control how much they spend and what they get.  Are you going to allow such a choice?  If I want, can I bring in my own tech personnel instead?  Can I select to not pay your fee not not have the service?  Do you offer different services?  If you do provide these options then that is business, with competition and options for the client.  If not, then it isn't at all the same as these other issues.

Well Thats why it should be a charge included with the rental of the church. Like the janatorial staff and other thing. It is the same as renting a theatre and other buildings that require at least one tech person to be there maybe not to run the sound but to oversee it. As a renter you dont get a choice there either You basically make your choice when you choose the venue.

[John Ward]

Regarding the comment about receiving money and the legal implications - It does not matter how or who pays you, it's reportable income, period. That's part of "doing business".

Just as I would not expect anyone to work for free, nor would I expect to do anything but report it as income.

Everyone seems to want something for free. Other than any advice posted here - not much in this life is free except the love and grace of Jesus Christ.

[Brad Weber]

Quote:

Well Thats why it should be a charge included with the rental of the church. Like the janatorial staff and other thing. It is the same as renting a theatre and other buildings that require at least one tech person to be there maybe not to run the sound but to oversee it. As a renter you dont get a choice there either You basically make your choice when you choose the venue.

Quote:

Regarding the comment about receiving money and the legal implications - It does not matter how or who pays you, it's reportable income, period. That's part of "doing business". Just as I would not expect anyone to work for free, nor would I expect to do anything but report it as income.

I knew that I was probably going to ruffle some feathers, but it brought out what I believe may be the real issues here.  I'm all for professionals getting paid for providing professional services and if you are expected to provide professional services or to act as an employee, then you should be offered appropriate compensation.  Whether you accept that and look at the service as a job or decide to approach it as your way of serving the church as a volunteer is a personal decision.  However, there seems to be two points to consider.

First, we appear to potentially be addressing very differing situations, but there seems to be a desire to have a single answer.  Is the event for a church member of not?  Is it a private or public event?  Does it require significant effort or little or no effort?  Is the audio system a complex system that requires special training and knowledge or a simple system that one could operate with little or no special knowledge of that system?  Is the operator a church employee, independent company, private individual for hire or a volunteer?  Is any related fee going to the church, through the church to the operator or directly to the operator?  And many more, there seem to be many variable and no one "typical" scenario.  Just because someone else charges $50 or $250 for an event does not mean that is necessarily directly relevant to your situation.  So you may have to develop a flexible approach of your own rather than try to apply what someone else does for what could be a very different situation.

Second, we now have the comparison of the church to theatres and other commercial events facilities as well as the identification of the fee being personal income.  This seems to segue into assessing the entire reason behind your church supporting special or outside events in the first place.  A theatre or other special events venue is a commercial venture, it charges for the facility and most events are either ticketed or commercially supported.  This is true even for community and non-profit theatres, they live or die off the income they make from these facility charges and ticket sales.  And don't forget that if someone rents a theatre and pays for the operators, they can in turn charge attendees and profit themselves, in most cases that is the entire idea.

However, is that also the reason your church opens their doors to others, as a commercial or money making venture?  Do you allow such users to charge for the event or profit themselves?  I think most churches actually support special events for reasons that have nothing to do with profit.  One may be simply as a service to the surrounding community, a way of being an active part of the larger community.  Another may be as a way of drawing potential new members.  In the case of weddings, it may be wanting to promote the holy sanctity of marriage by providing an appropriate location for those who might otherwise not have a church wedding.  But I believe that in very few cases are the special events or events for those outside the church supported with the intent to directly profit from such use.

It is reasonable to want to recover the direct costs for many events.  Having the lights on and the A/C running has a real cost as does the related cleanup, insurance, etc.  Any employees required to support the event also represent a cost to the church.  Asking the users to absorb these actual costs seems reasonable in most cases, but you potentially enter a different realm when you envision such use as a profit making venture and comparable to or even directly competing with commercial ventures.  This is potentially something you should discuss with your church leadership, their vision as to why they support these events and the potential benefits may be different than yours.

If the intent is to be a profit center and you are directed to provide professional services or function as an employee, then personal compensation seems only appropriate.  But I have to think that in most cases the situation is not so simple and you may have to work with your church leadership to address each event for what it is and why the church is supporting it.

[Michael King]

I do see your point brad. Maybe the OP who obviously isn't running a big A/V department at the church since his mixer is an A/H.

I think if it your call to provide all your services free of charge then so be it. and more power to you. I on the other hand felt my call for worship sound. And when not doing worship i do sound for other places (theatres, freelancing, and what not). When the church has a wedding and im the only that has the "understanding" (for lack of a better word) to do a wedding then i now feel obligated to do this. I feel i need a Lil something to cover my cost. Wedding are special to people and you cannot just allow some one to randomly press buttons. feedback at weddings make the bride very mad on her special day and is uncalled for in my opinion.

I'm agreeing with brad its about the size of the church, your experience, and your convictions. I don't think we will make a standard answer the OP was asking for other than "follow your heart". (yay i love cheesy ending statements)

edit: Yeah if you do it through th church it will be easier on the whole tax thing yall were worrying about. Im not advocating tax fraud.

[Chris Everett]

My church is a large, more traditional styled church, and as such is a magnet for both members and non-members.  We also have complex enough technical systems that an average individual would not be able to effectively run them.

And yes, we charge.

Why?
1.  We often have weddings every weekend in the summer.  Each wedding requires 4+ hours of time over two days between rehearsal, setup, tear down, and the actual event.  To ask someone to volunteer four hours of time and effectively give up their weekends for an event where they may have no idea who the bride/groom even are is simply unfair.
2.  We do expect our techs to offer good service.  Custom lighting cues, good sound, several mics, playback, etc.
3.  The couple does spend big money on everything.  photographers, caterers, DJ's, dress, cake, etc....
4.  The chuch is rented as a venue for weddings.  The building is expected to make money doing it.  Members get a discount that probably breaks even for the church.
5.  We aren't willing to let anyone use (and potentally break) our systems.
6.  We are unwilling to have people bring in other equipment that reflects badly on us.

If I were in a small chuch with one or two weddings a year and a simple "flip this switch to turn on the sound system"  I may not bother to charge.

In general my policy is that we are volunteers for "all-chuch" events.  For events where the church is rented to a third party, we always charge.  (Yes, we host concerts and the like where the renters turn a profit) For an event related to a specific ministry, we will charge if we need to stay there through the whole event.  If we just need to set up for it, we don't.

After all, we volunteer our time to the church body... Not to the building.

[ProSoundWeb Community]