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Author Topic: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???  (Read 9751 times)

John Sabine

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Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« on: April 12, 2011, 03:32:51 pm »

Ok, Let me preface this by saying that I am a Yorkville dealer so I am not bashing someone elses product. I just want to help save someone the headaches I've been going through.

 In January I decided it was time to replace my ageing Yorkville NX520p powered monitors. I wanted something that would be a step up in quality and performance. I also required something that had a relatively shallow depth because I do a lot of fraternity gigs and in some places the stage is only 8 feet deep or less. After looking through the Yorkville product catalog I decided that the E210 would be the ticket. I already had one in stock so I'd just order 2 more and my upstage monitoring would be taken care of. I got the speakers in, re-commissioned an Alto 4 Channel digital amp I had put up for sale and, theoretically I was in business again. Well several headache ridden, feedback riddled gigs later I finally have narrowed my problem down to the speakers themselves. Using a tone generator, a RTA, and my own personal ears I have deduced that the spacing of the 10" woofers in this cabinet creates a large phase problem at 500hz and corresponding phase problems at 250hz and 1000hz. Put 3 of these on a stage and you have so many phase anomalies that eq'ing monitors is virtually impossible. I would fix one problem only to have another problem pop up as soon as the performer moved. I know that there are always phase anomalies with any speaker but this was so bad that at 250, 500, and 1k there are spots in the near field that you actually feel as if you are under water. I talked to the designer of these speakers this morning and he confirmed my findings.  According to him these speakers were never really intended to be used laying horizontally. He said that he knew of the phase problems but that since an audience almost never moves up and down much, that it was never thought to be a problem. He said that in itís effort to make every speaker multi functional, Yorkville had made the cabinet a modified trapezoidal design but that the speaker was really never designed to be used any other orientation than vertical. I tried different polarity options with the horn and woofers but the only option that yielded satisfactory results was completely disconnecting one woofer. When I did this the cabinet became very easy to eq and sounded great, but of course now I had a single 10Ē monitor that only handled 300watts. Not exactly what I had been wanting when I ordered them.  Looks like Iíll be giving someone a killer deal on 3 E210ís and replacing them with either the EM378 or E12 monitors.
 Also let me say that Iíve used the E210ís as FOH speakers and they really are nice sounding speakers when used in conjuction with a subwoofer. Just donít lay them on their sides.
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Brian Ehlers

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 06:33:25 pm »

On a similar note, I'm always amused at the sheer number of home theater center channel speakers out there with a pair of widely spaced mid-range drivers in the horizontal plane.  Perhaps the goal is to give every seat in the house a different comb filter.   ???
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Jon Barnhardt

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2011, 10:33:48 am »

PM me on the 210's - I might be interested...

thanks!
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Rob Gow

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 04:34:34 am »

PM me on the 210's - I might be interested...

thanks!

I would say the trapezoid shape is more for putting a pair (or more) on each side. I use the YX12's. They are only 200W, but I've done everything from bluegrass to death metal, with little or no complaints....

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Jeffrey Knorr - CobraSound.com

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 09:13:36 am »

Hi John,

Do yourself a favor and find a nice set of co-ax monitors to use.  Even single lf driver/horn cabinets have the issues of multiple driver interference (although not usually as bad as what you're experiencing with the dual LF drivers). 

Switching to co-ax monitors made my job running monitors from FOH MUCH easier.  We're using the FBT PSR212MA's but sadly they were discontinued.  RCF has a similar product out now (the NX-12-SMA) that a customer of mine just evaluated and ordered SIX!

Jeff
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Mike McNany

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 02:56:47 pm »

WOW!

I've been using two E210Bs for front line monitors for a while and haven't had any problem. This is mostly small venues and they never get cranked very loud. The few outdoor gigs were fine with them as monitors. These are used close up to the performer and not trying to take care of the performer moving very much on stage. I'm not usiung any processing on them other than a 31 band dbx EQ.

Mike McNany
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John Sabine

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 08:07:15 am »

Nope.. The modified trap design was solely for the purpose of marketing.

I've used and installed these speakers as FOH boxes and have had excellent results with them. That is one reason I got them. I already had one in stock and even tried it and it seemed fine at normal levels. The problem arises when you go from normal levels to rock and roll levels, which is what I primarily do. Then all hell breaks loose.

I've actually had a couple of pairs of co-axial monitors in the past and really liked them but I'm a sell what you run kinda guy and I sell Yorkville so that's what I run.

On the subject of the YX 12's I agree completely. I actually took a pair of YX10's out this weekend to make up for the two missing E210s and they were amazing! If it weren't for the fact the I'm running 375w RMS per box I'd just commission a few of them and be done with it. lol

Went out this weekend with 2 old NX20's, 2 YX10's and one of the E210's with one woofer disconnected. Only one tiny squeak during sound check and got nothing but positive comments on my monitor mixes.




PM me on the 210's - I might be interested...

thanks!

I would say the trapezoid shape is more for putting a pair (or more) on each side. I use the YX12's. They are only 200W, but I've done everything from bluegrass to death metal, with little or no complaints....
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 08:09:26 am by John Sabine »
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Mike McNany

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 09:05:31 am »

Nope.. The modified trap design was solely for the purpose of marketing.

I've used and installed these speakers as FOH boxes and have had excellent results with them. That is one reason I got them. I already had one in stock and even tried it and it seemed fine at normal levels. The problem arises when you go from normal levels to rock and roll levels, which is what I primarily do. Then all hell breaks loose.

I've actually had a couple of pairs of co-axial monitors in the past and really liked them but I'm a sell what you run kinda guy and I sell Yorkville so that's what I run.

On the subject of the YX 12's I agree completely. I actually took a pair of YX10's out this weekend to make up for the two missing E210s and they were amazing! If it weren't for the fact the I'm running 375w RMS per box I'd just commission a few of them and be done with it. lol

Went out this weekend with 2 old NX20's, 2 YX10's and one of the E210's with one woofer disconnected. Only one tiny squeak during sound check and got nothing but positive comments on my monitor mixes.

I would say the trapezoid shape is more for putting a pair (or more) on each side. I use the YX12's. They are only 200W, but I've done everything from bluegrass to death metal, with little or no complaints....

Funny, my other 2 monitors are NX20s bought used and I really like them, too. I found the E210s to work very well for speaking engagements on stands outdoors.

Compared the elite processors manual's curves. While it's a bit hard for me to interpret the frequency vs. dB vs. phase chart (I can handle TWO of those but all 3 together confuses me a bit). It clearly shows the E210 has a near 3 dB advantage at 70Hz. The graphs also show a pronounced dip centered about 825Hz, spanning 600-1100Hz.  I am assuming the graphs show the final processed output. That dip is out of what would otherwise be a smooth line. On the phase side of the graph that dip would equate to about a 40 degree shift or so in playback mode. In live mode (on the processor), that dip is made more significant with a huge hump around 1080Hz with 3 dB more and an extra 25 degrees of phase difference.

Mike McNany
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John Sabine

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 03:48:18 pm »

I'm pretty sure that all of the measurements were made with the speakers in the vertical position. The major phase problems that I found were when they were in the horizontal position.
 I'm also not finding the phase charts on the spec page for the e210's. Where did you find them?
I'm thinking about taking my lone remaining E210 and overlaying a new front with the woofers mounted next to each other and the horn at one end. My thinking is that this would leave me with only two major areas of phase interference since the first higher harmonic would be moved above the low pass frequency of the internal crossover plus it would be fun just to try it. lol





Funny, my other 2 monitors are NX20s bought used and I really like them, too. I found the E210s to work very well for speaking engagements on stands outdoors.

Compared the elite processors manual's curves. While it's a bit hard for me to interpret the frequency vs. dB vs. phase chart (I can handle TWO of those but all 3 together confuses me a bit). It clearly shows the E210 has a near 3 dB advantage at 70Hz. The graphs also show a pronounced dip centered about 825Hz, spanning 600-1100Hz.  I am assuming the graphs show the final processed output. That dip is out of what would otherwise be a smooth line. On the phase side of the graph that dip would equate to about a 40 degree shift or so in playback mode. In live mode (on the processor), that dip is made more significant with a huge hump around 1080Hz with 3 dB more and an extra 25 degrees of phase difference.

Mike McNany
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 10:09:40 pm »

I'm pretty sure that all of the measurements were made with the speakers in the vertical position. The major phase problems that I found were when they were in the horizontal position.
 I'm also not finding the phase charts on the spec page for the e210's. Where did you find them?
I'm thinking about taking my lone remaining E210 and overlaying a new front with the woofers mounted next to each other and the horn at one end. My thinking is that this would leave me with only two major areas of phase interference since the first higher harmonic would be moved above the low pass frequency of the internal crossover plus it would be fun just to try it. lol

Wouldn't it be much easier to put a large inductor on one woofer so it rolls off early? After that listen and see if the HF needs to be padded down any more. I'm guessing not. It might be a little hot on the top end, but with a little eq'ing should be livable.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 10:12:01 pm by Tim Weaver »
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Ned Ward

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 12:46:21 am »

Just to be clear, these Yorkies can't be the worst vocal monitor, since I bought one way before I knew what good monitors sounded like: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=safari&rls=en&q=nady+active+monitor&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=4331563763844540699&sa=X&ei=jxOtTd2DBOnniAL6o7zZDA&ved=0CCoQ8gIwBA#
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Mike McNany

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 08:28:26 am »

I'm also not finding the phase charts on the spec page for the e210's. Where did you find them?

It's in the processor manual.

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?id=136&cat=2&type=29  Select the link to down load the processor manual and you can find the curves for the E10 and E210. This manual covers the bulk of the Yorkville Elite line although there is a seperate processor for each speaker.

Mike McNany
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John Sabine

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 11:27:14 am »

I'm thinking that adding another inductor after the internal high pass crossover would actually just change the slope of the existing crossover and possibly even add another phase problem and it would definitely change low pass frequency on the other woofer and the existing crossover because it would change the impedence of the load at the crossover frequency. I'd really need a dedicated 3 way crossover to truly fix the problem.


Wouldn't it be much easier to put a large inductor on one woofer so it rolls off early? After that listen and see if the HF needs to be padded down any more. I'm guessing not. It might be a little hot on the top end, but with a little eq'ing should be livable.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 05:08:21 pm »

I'm thinking that adding another inductor after the internal high pass crossover would actually just change the slope of the existing crossover and possibly even add another phase problem and it would definitely change low pass frequency on the other woofer and the existing crossover because it would change the impedence of the load at the crossover frequency. I'd really need a dedicated 3 way crossover to truly fix the problem.

I'm thinking that you tap the signal for that woofer pre factory crossover and then use a largish inductor to do a simple 1st order X-O on this woof somewhere in the 200-300 ish range. That way it'll be 10-12 db down by the crossover region which will prevent the phase errors from a second woofer in the vocal range.

You've already been using it with one woofer disconnected which leads me to believe that the HF section would be OK if done this way.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 05:11:04 pm »

I'm thinking that you tap the signal for that woofer pre factory crossover and then use a largish inductor to do a simple 1st order X-O on this woof somewhere in the 200-300 ish range. That way it'll be 10-12 db down by the crossover region which will prevent the phase errors from a second woofer in the vocal range.

You've already been using it with one woofer disconnected which leads me to believe that the HF section would be OK if done this way.

And actually if you really wanted to be cool you could wire a switch in to go between factory (good for FOH) crossover and 2.5 way (good for monitors) crossover. That would be my choice I think.
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John Sabine

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 06:45:25 pm »

Hmmmm... very interesting! :)



I'm thinking that you tap the signal for that woofer pre factory crossover and then use a largish inductor to do a simple 1st order X-O on this woof somewhere in the 200-300 ish range. That way it'll be 10-12 db down by the crossover region which will prevent the phase errors from a second woofer in the vocal range.

You've already been using it with one woofer disconnected which leads me to believe that the HF section would be OK if done this way.

And actually if you really wanted to be cool you could wire a switch in to go between factory (good for FOH) crossover and 2.5 way (good for monitors) crossover. That would be my choice I think.
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Rob Gow

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2011, 11:10:06 am »

Quote
On the subject of the YX 12's I agree completely. I actually took a pair of YX10's out this weekend to make up for the two missing E210s and they were amazing! If it weren't for the fact the I'm running 375w RMS per box I'd just commission a few of them and be done with it. lol


YX15's

I'm not even sure what all is available for monitors from Yorkville. They YX12's fit my budget at the time, and I've never had the need to replace them. I've only ever replaced a horn driver once, over countless numbers of gigs since 03. Did a bar gig last night for a full on metal band. They were really happy with the monitor sound. Plenty of volume, they liked the mix etc etc.

I would definitely buy them again.

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Re: Yorkville E210 the worst vocal monitor ever???
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