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Author Topic: Looking at proposals - Need Advice  (Read 15281 times)

Aaron McQueen

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2006, 12:03:55 pm »

Forget about the feedback destroyer.
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Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God - Romans 10:17 NKJV

Nathan Walker

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2006, 12:22:09 pm »

Aaron McQueen wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 12:03

Forget about the feedback destroyer.

What do you mean?
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Aaron McQueen

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2006, 12:35:18 pm »

In a properly tuned system you will not need it.  Mic placement, mic choice,  monitor placement, speaker system alignment and system tuning are much more important in the fight against feedback.  Often times feedback destroyers will automatically notch out frequencies to the detriment of the overall sound.
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Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God - Romans 10:17 NKJV

Nathan Walker

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2006, 12:57:14 pm »

You make a good point. However I'd still need to learn how to use one for special occasions where microphone placement is not as it is on a typical Sunday. For example, 5 wireless lapel microphones for a Christmas pageant. All within 15 feet (never again without decent microphones).
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Aaron McQueen

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2006, 01:23:35 pm »

Nathan Walker wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 12:57

You make a good point. However I'd still need to learn how to use one for special occasions where microphone placement is not as it is on a typical Sunday. For example, 5 wireless lapel microphones for a Christmas pageant. All within 15 feet (never again without decent microphones).


Exactly, different microphones would have fixed the problem, not a feedback destroyer.  
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Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God - Romans 10:17 NKJV

Nathan Walker

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2006, 03:12:51 pm »

Good point yet again.
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Tom Young

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2006, 05:13:22 pm »

This "specification" is pretty non-specific to begin with as far as its base performance and in particular for the loudspeaker system.

By not specifying basic performance criteria the results are very likely to be much more the subject of interpretation.  

Among other things, you need to know:

how loud the loudspeaker systems can get and with how much dynamic headroom

the frequency response: +/- so many dB and tied into a clearer requirement of coverage ("system shall cover all seats (while restricting over-coverage onto walls and ceiling) and provide a frequency response of +/-4dB across this area".... for example)

how the elements of the loudspeaker system will be optimized and aligned. This includes the processing, how it is routed, amplification and then how the whole shebang will be measured and tuned once it has been installed. Folks who know how to do this can significantly improve any make of ldspkr system (cheap or 'top shelf') and this should be included in their labor charges.

Safety. You need to ensure that the rigging for any suspended devices (audio, video and lighting) are designed by experienced installers and then have this inspected and stamped by a licensed PE. Ditto the electrical power and the need for establishing how this is designed and implemented.

Also FYI, there are a good number of DSP processing systems (absolutley needed for the loudspeaker systems) that you can buy with additional inputs and then program these for automixing so that smaller/less complex events can be run without an operator OR relying on the operator to remember to set the board up.  Adding this to a DSP system only costs a few hundred dollars more. But this takes time to program, which the installer should include in their labor.

While you are at it, include a few more inputs and outputs in the DSP system so that individual mic's (or subgroups of mic's) can be equalized separately and with far greater precision than what is provided on the mixer channels. Your Christmas pageant is a good example of where this comes in handy. I would add 1-2 additional "spare" in's and out's for future applications.

Another detail falls under system noise and quality and includes specifying the right cable, routing it correctly (separation between wiring level groups, using metal conduit where needed, etc) and then painstakingly setting system gain.

In my opinion there is little point in having instruction if the system is hampered by poor performance when completed.
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2006, 06:24:44 pm »

As Tom has pointed out, without a performance component to the spec you may as well go out and buy a bunch of boxes at Banjo Center. The critical design phase of your installation is not mentioned at all in your RFP. This is the most important reason to hire an independent designer, or at least an installer who will break out the design as a separate job. Someone who knows what they are doing has to set the minimum performance goals or there will be no way to know if your finished system meets any kind of reasonable standard. They don't need to know how many console channels you think you need, or what kind of mics you want. They need to know what you are going to do with the system, and what your goals are for the future.

I am getting some improvements done on a cottage I own. I have hired a contractor who is doing a design based on what I have told him I envision. We will work together through the design phase, and when we have something I like we will move on to building it. I have paid for the design, but it is the property of the builder until it is built. I would expect to use a similar model when working with a sound system installer.

Mac
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Nathan Walker

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2006, 09:00:01 pm »

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2006, 09:24:47 pm »

The question I am going to ask, and have asked many times here before, are the JBL's listed for mains actually correct for your room?  How are they planning on implementing them?  What about subs?  What is your style of worship?  What is the size/shape/seating of the room? Is the TT24 going to give you enough inputs?  Do you need a choir monitor?  Is 2 monitor mixes enough for you?

Does the price include installation?  This may sound like a stupid question, but many churches have been "burnt" by this little fact.
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Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Looking at proposals - Need Advice
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2006, 09:24:47 pm »


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