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Author Topic: Yamaha speakers  (Read 4912 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2006, 06:24:11 pm »

[quote title=Tom Young wrote on Sat, 18 November 2006 17:30If I was "activating" a passive system I would start by carefully & painstakingly measuring the drivers in question and then determine the needed or 'natural'  *acoustic* crossover point befor then determining where the active (electrical) crossover needs to go and what characteristics it should have.

Not so trivial.  [/quote]
Especially when the drivers that I suspect are in those cabinets are rated to as "usable freq range" of 1.2K-20K.  Crossing over below that will put a REAL strain on the HF driver.

The all to often unfortunate situation is that many people do things that have no real basis or logic to them, and they believe that since THEY did it, it must be better.

I agree totally with your idea of finding the natural acoustic crossover.  If there is a overlap, then err on the high side-for driver protection.  But of course there are other issues that need to be taken into account in order to find the "proper" electronic crossover point.  ANd when you add what type of crossover and slope you should use, you have just opened up a whole new box of issues that need to be addressed properly for the best performance.  There is no way you can do this and get the best possible performance without proper measurement, and that does not include your ears or an RTA.
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Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.

Tom Young

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2006, 05:29:18 am »

"ANd when you add what type of crossover and slope you should use, you have just opened up a whole new box of issues that need to be addressed properly for the best performance. There is no way you can do this and get the best possible performance without proper measurement, and that does not include your ears or an RTA."

Agree 100%.

Back when I knew much less about what encompasses sound reinforcement and loudspeaker system design, I was more prone to modify things or build them from scratch. I suspect you were as well. And back then there were very few products that were fully designed.

Now that I know much more (but still not enough) and I have most of the measurement tools, I know enough to avoid modifying things or building them from scratch. I evaluate products and try to use those that are fully engineered so that they work as well as they can and then I optimize them (in situ) as best I can. This works much better. And it still takes plenty of time. Most of the other geezers I know have come to this same conclusion and method.

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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2006, 09:39:15 am »

[quote title=Tom Young wrote on Sun, 19 November 2006 05:29
Back when I knew much less about what encompasses sound reinforcement and loudspeaker system design, I was more prone to modify things or build them from scratch. I suspect you were as well. And back then there were very few products that were fully designed.

[/quote]

I used to modify EVERYTHING I owned. Most of it for the better, but since I used only my own loudspeakers I built, they were perfect already Laughing

Times have changed now, and like you said, now that I know better.  Having good measurement tools is both a blessing and a curse.  They can really help, but they also show you things you really don't want to know.

Why, just this past Fri, we setup a demo to be used through the weekend at a church of a steerable line source.  The rep said he could set it up in about 10-15 minutes.  I said that I wanted to use my multi mic setup and use 8 mics-seated and standing in various positions around the room. I let him set it up his way and then we measured it.  We then adjusted it for a couple of hours untill I was sudo happy with it (not great or what I expect, but good enough for the demo).  It got much better than just using what the prediciton software told us.

VERIFICATION!!!

One thing that  I have learned with my involvement with Danley is that often what you think is going to happen, doesn't.  In playing around with the crossovers one time there was a little dip that I was going to try to get rid of.  If I just lower that capacitor value a bit, that will shift the crossover point down and fix it. WRONG!!!!!  Yeah it fixed what I was trying to fix, but it screwed up stuff all around it and the end result was much worse.  So I did some more "seat of the pants engineering" to see what I could come up with.  It all got worse, I never got it any better.  

But I guess that I could just blame the test equipment I was using.  If it wasn't so good, I would never see the other problems I created so therefore they would not exist. Laughing
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Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.

SteveJay2005

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2006, 11:29:04 am »

Hi.

I agree with Ivan sometimes test tools can be more inconsistent than the equipment they are testing.

Research is always preferred to compulsively ripping out or modifying stuff.

Steve
http://www.orwellchurch.co.uk
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Tom Young

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2006, 12:58:02 pm »

Welcome, Steve.

You need to edit your profile and use your real name, not a "hybrid".

Thanks.
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Andy Peters

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2006, 02:50:38 pm »

Randyw wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 16:47

The crossover I am using is a DBX driverack PA. ...  As far as processing I am using an ashley EQ for the house. ... I don't use an RTA nor will I, for years and all over this planet I use my ears to EQ a room. What I meant by pull down a frequency is: on a 31 band EQ there are little faders that slide up and down to adjust different frequencies in the spectrum. So lets say that 3.1kHz is harsh in that room, you would pull down or lower that fader to achieve that results that you want. So when I say pull down a freq thats what I mean.


I'm sure I'm not the only person who wonders why you don't use the EQs in the DriveRack.  I'll bet that they're all set flat.  There's a venue in Tucson that has a DriveRack 260 and a 1231.  The 1231 has all sorts of awful cuts and the processor's EQs are all flat.  I don't understand.

Perhaps the fear of test equipment extends to your fear of using the processor's capabilities?  If your concern is that pulling down 3.15kHz on the analog graphic affects a larger bandwidth than you'd like (and that's a valid concern), then use a parametric in the processor!

-a
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Brad Weber

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2006, 05:14:01 pm »

Or simply approach of someone used to temporary setups versus permanent installs.  I think that most people who work primarily with installed systems would use the DSP for system processing as it should be set and then left alone.  Then leave the FOH EQ available for 'artistic' use.  But many people used to touring sound or portable applications may use the FOH EQ to try to adjust for the room since it is easier to do by ear and will likely be different the next use anyways.  Different approaches showing simply that the best solution for a particular application is not necessarily the best for all applications.
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Brad Weber
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Randyw

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2006, 10:44:38 am »

Thanks guys, sorry about the delay in answering you again, I've been gone.   I made a swing past the church,  moved the crossover point to 1.7k as one of you stated.  At that point I had to lower the volume of the highs!  I am really happy with the way it sounds now,  much better.  They still sound like yamaha speakers but for what we're dealing with I'm happy.  Thanks alot guys!!  Also just so you know, when I initially installed DSP....I made the big cuts in that, and fine tuned things at the EQ at FOH.  I also finially installed the qsc ex2500 amp to run the mids, replacing the yamaha cp2000, which also increased the quality somewhat.  During the past week church workers have put up all of the acoustic panels now, so I will need to re-eq the gym. What a huge differance in there, I knew those would help but it made bigger differance than I expected.  It doesn't even sound like a gym anymore, more like a rectanglar confrence room with a 25ft ceilings, and basketball goals. I might have to start using reverbs now   Very Happy
Take care guys and thanks for your input.  I'll try to get some pics for one of you soon, I left my digital camera on the bus, I won't get it back until January. Mad  
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Tom Young

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« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2006, 07:17:00 am »

Randy-

Please edit your profile and use your real / complete name. This is a board rule and everone here plays by the rules.

Thanks
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

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« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2006, 07:17:00 am »


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