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Author Topic: Yamaha speakers  (Read 4914 times)

Winston Gamble

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2006, 05:28:43 pm »

Randyw wrote on Mon, 13 November 2006 00:28

Small church, but growing extremely rapidly....they must now meet in the Church's gym for services.  The gym has a stage, and some ok equipment.  They have these horrible Yamaha speakers that are full range, flown, two in a center cluster covering a full gym of 400 people. WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? Am I wasting my time??


I would be inclined to think your room is a bigger problem than your speakers. That and perhaps trying to get 10lbs of sound out of 5lbs of speakers. I don't believe I have ever heard anyone praise the sound of any speaker in a gym environment and 400 people is a pretty tall order if you are running a full band through them. Many people, myself included, consider those Yamaha's to be very good value for their price point. Your money and energy might be better saved for the time when your growing Church is ready to move into a new space. Until then, don't expect concert quality sound out of a barely adequate mix of decent MI gear and keep as much of what sound you do have off of the walls and on the audience.

Good luck, it sounds like a difficult situation.
Winston

PS. I would be inclined to put both the subs together in the middle if I only had two 18s to work with.
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Ira White

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2006, 02:14:29 pm »

Tom,

I appreciate your compassionate correction and it is taken to heart. I've had so many such problems with speaker performance that I tend to get overly assertive about products that have provided solutions for me. As you suggest, I will no longer assume that for others unless it is requested. Thanks-  
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Ira White
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Tom Young

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2006, 03:15:34 pm »

Ira-

I appreciate your reasonable response and look forward to your continued presence here.

Thanks.
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
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Randyw

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2006, 06:47:37 pm »

Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner to you all, I was out of town and forgot my laptop.  These speakers are the models with flyware.  I'm not technically arraying them, I only have the horns with a 3degree overlap of one another.(per side)  The crossover I am using is a DBX driverack PA. The crossover points are 80Hz for subs and 800Hz for the horns.  I cross referenced the capacitor in the original crossover to come up with the 800Hz.  I'm not running these at high power(its a church) but like I said before it was an amazing increase in clarity and coverage vs. the old arrangement in a single center cluster running full range.  Yes, I am running a full band through them.  As far as aiming the speakers I flipped the speakers over so the horn is down, this way I can direct the horns into the audience and off the walls for the most part, without having to pull them back as far.  I have the horns hitting up on the walls about 12ft, but that was the best I could do without overlaping the horns and creating comb filtering.  Unfortunately I can't put the subs together due to the layout of the stage, I tried.  As far as the obtaining the other two speakers the church owned a third so I was able to go on ebay a get a forth for around $150. As far as processing I am using an ashley EQ for the house. I don't use an RTA nor will I, for years and all over this planet I use my ears to EQ a room. What I meant by pull down a frequency is: on a 31 band EQ there are little faders that slide up and down to adjust different frequencies in the spectrum. So lets say that 3.1kHz is harsh in that room, you would pull down or lower that fader to achieve that results that you want. So when I say pull down a freq thats what I mean.  The people are amazed in the difference in sound quality, my question to you all, was if I should put better quality drivers in the yamaha enclosures, if so would that give me better quality sound?  (A bigger bang for you buck so to say) I do appreciate your responses...well, some of them.  I just don't have much experience with the lower end PA's.  It's just kinda frustrating when people find out that I am a touring FOH engineer so they expect the same quality of sound when I drive at church as they do when they come to one of my concerts. I'm not a magician, and this isn't a VDOSC, or MILO rig....why won't they understand that.  
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Randyw

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2006, 06:54:21 pm »

Oh, and Winston you are right the room is horrible.  We are working on putting up sound absorbant material throughout the room and it's getting better little by little.   And for the others I didn't mean to sound sarcastic with the EQ description but you never know who's out there. They may be a pro, they may be a middle schooler.
Later
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Brad Weber

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2006, 01:11:22 pm »

You are correct that your system is not going to provide large format concert sound quality and it sounds like you recognize that.  However, based on what everyone says about the Yamaha S115IV Club series speakers and Yamaha's published data, you shouldn't be having the problems you say you are having and you should get decent sound quality, say club quality like the speaker name implies.  But making any changes to the drivers might be a complete waste of money until you can establish that any problems are actually related to the current drivers rather than to other issues that would affect any drivers.

How much of the problems you are hearing, or aren't as it may be for any missing response, are the result of damaged or abused speakers versus modifying the speakers and setting then up for biamp operation versus interaction between speakers versus interaction with the room and so on is going to be difficult to determine without more specific information and ideally the type of information a measurement platform like Smaart, EASERA or Praxis could provide.  You may feel you can EQ by ear, but the ear can't provide some of the time blind information that these tools can, information which can be extremely useful in assessing the performance of the system components and identifying some of the potential problems.  Without these tools you may have to try a number of different things in an attempt to narrow down the cause of the problem(s).

Stereo systems may be the norm for concert applications that include many stereo sources and lots of stereo effects, but for a number of reasons they are not usually the preferred approach for applications that include any significant speech and mono source content.  This is not a condemnation or admonition, but I wonder how much the improvements you perceive have occurred are the result of having a system configuration that is closer to what you are used to dealing with.  People tend to learn to mix to make the most of the systems they work with so at least some of the improvements you hear may be related to making the system better fit your mixing style than actually being a direct result of the physical changes.  An improvement is an improvement, but what improves a system in one way may introduce other issues and in this case the use of a stereo system and multiple speakers in a fairly live space may be causing some problems.  Without the analysis tools noted above you may have to take a more physical approach to identifying and isolating the problems and causes.

If practical, try setting up one speaker with your processor and amp outdoors in a large open area.  If the speaker sounds good here then it is not a direct speaker issue.  This can help you set the processing for the speaker itself by removing the effect of the room which can then be addressed later.  I will say that 800Hz seems a little low for the crossover point, on a 2 way speaker like this the crossover would typically be more in the 1,200Hz range.

I was not totally clear, but it sounds as though you have two speakers side by side on each side of the 'stage', sort of a horizontal array.  Try the system with just one speaker active, ignoring coverage and such, does the speaker sound better?  Does pulling down a fader have the same dramatic effect?  Then try it with just one speaker per side active, at 90 degree horizontal coverage there is likely no need for two speakers per side in order to cover the room horizontally.  Does this clean it up at all?  All of these things may help show if the interaction between the speakers.

If the above description of the speaker configuration is correct then I am also a little confused by the comment that the horns are hitting up the wall about 12'.  With only a 45 degree vertical pattern, I would expect the speakers to be aimed down at the audience quite a bit and definitely not 12' up on the back wall so maybe I am misunderstanding something.  What are the dimension of the room and where are the speakers in the room including how high they are?  If the audience is out of the horn pattern and the high frequencies are being reflected off wall surfaces this could lead to some of the problems you noted.

Until you can rule out that the problems are related directly to the speakers and not a result of the system settings or of speaker or room interaction, then it seems premature to assume that changing the drivers would be beneficial.
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Brad Weber
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Tony Mah

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2006, 02:46:12 am »

Randy,

Can you post a picture? I am curious why a 4 box L/R cluster would sound better than a 3 box L/C/R split cluster?

The likely reason the horns sound bad is becuase you are crossing at 800hz, it is too low for entry level drivers. Try crossing at 2Khz, re-eq and see if it sounds better.

Tony  
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Aaron McQueen

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2006, 09:44:22 am »

Quote:

The crossover points are 80Hz for subs and 800Hz for the horns. I cross referenced the capacitor in the original crossover to come up with the 800Hz.


Randy you can not just look at the value of the capacitor and come up with the crossover point.  The other components matter too.  Page six of the manual states that the internal crossover is at 1.7kHz.
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/english/speakers/Club IV_E.pdf
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2006, 03:28:44 pm »

Aaron McQueen wrote on Fri, 17 November 2006 09:44

Quote:

The crossover points are 80Hz for subs and 800Hz for the horns. I cross referenced the capacitor in the original crossover to come up with the 800Hz.


Randy you can not just look at the value of the capacitor and come up with the crossover point.  The other components matter too.  Page six of the manual states that the internal crossover is at 1.7kHz.
 http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/english/speakers/Club IV_E.pdf
Hmmm...read the manual, that's an interesting idea.

Mac
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Tom Young

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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2006, 05:30:12 pm »

"The crossover points are 80Hz for subs and 800Hz for the horns. I cross referenced the capacitor in the original crossover to come up with the 800Hz."

Component values for a given crossover (or any other filter) are determined by several factors starting with the impedance of the driver(s) and then the order (slope) of the filter. Other factors such as the presence of conjugate or Zoebel networks also may effect values of the base crossover components (when these networks alter the base impedance).

Frankly, there are very few 2-way crossovers in the 800Hz range used in sound reinforcement these days and this is especially true with lower cost stuff. The primary reason for this is the need for HF driver protection and the crossover characteristics that are chosen are not necessarily the best thing for sound quality.

Notable exceptions are those loudspeakers that are designed/engineered to the Nth degree and are actively processed or otherwise very well controlled (Meyer, for one, with some crossovers at or below 800Hz) OR passive networks designed for specific and complex loudspeaker system performance characteristics such as those from Danely Sound Labs, wherein the passive network effects directivity (!) and phase alignment.  

In designing simple passive crossovers you can either go by simple cookbook formulae, which all assume a single number impedance, OR you can measure the actual impedance at the crossover frequency and come up with a far better designed (and sounding)network.

If I was "activating" a passive system I would start by carefully & painstakingly measuring the drivers in question and then determine the needed or 'natural'  *acoustic* crossover point befor then determining where the active (electrical) crossover needs to go and what characteristics it should have.

Not so trivial.  
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
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Re: Yamaha speakers
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2006, 05:30:12 pm »


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