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[Randyw]

Hello everyone, I'm new here, but have been in audio for several years.   I was recently "promoted" to the church sound "dude", when they found out that's what I do. (I find it best to keep your mouth closed sometimes)  But I'm happy to do it.  Here's my situation.   Small church, but growing extremely rapidly....they must now meet in the Church's gym for services.  The gym has a stage, and some ok equipment.  They have these horrible Yamaha speakers that are full range, flown, two in a center cluster covering a full gym of 400 people. The church doesn't have any extra money for audio things at this point so I've done what I could on a budget.  I've re-flown the speakers, using two per side.  Giving me 180degree coverage, and more control.  I also removed the internal crossover and bi-amped them.  I installed some single 18" JBL subs under the stage 1 per side.  I am powering these with a Crown K1 for High, QSC EX2500  for mids, and two Yamaha CP2000's for Subs running those bridge-mono for each sub.  I am phasing out the yamaha amps(cause I have found them to be unreliable)

My question is I hate the way the horns on the yamaha speaker sound,  you start to do some EQ work and pull down a freq, and the most of the horn goes with it.  I know that they are cheap drivers, so I'm thinking of replacing the drivers themselves with something better.   The church doesn't have the money to go buy some EAW's or something of quality, so I have to live with these yamaha's.  I was thinking of B&C speakers, to replace the drivers. WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? Am I wasting my time??

[Mac Kerr]

I think the church should have found a sound "dude" who wouldn't destroy their equipment without knowing what he was doing. It's a shame you didn't ask for advice before ripping out the crossovers.

Mac

[Ivan Beaver]

Way to many times people think that they can get better results just by going Bi/Tri amped, rather than sticking with the engineered passive unit.  Yes they possibly "might" be able to, but without the proper measurement gear (and the knowledge to go with it), in many cases, the end results will be worse.

But to answer the OP question, EXACTLY what model yamaha's does he have?  If they are the origional 4115's with the silver-metal horn and the white woofers, you are not going to simply replace the driver with a better one.  It is a non standard size.  Yes I have replaced them (with a little drilling), but that is because the replacement diaphrams were way to expensive (years ago anyway).

Also you simply cannot go replacing drivers on a horn.  After you have done a little experimenting you will find that simply putting a "better" one on a horn the dispertion may not be what you think it is.  Depending on the depth of the diaphram and the loading of the horn, what you think used to be a 90* horn is now really a 25* horn.  Not good.  So now you have a "better" sounding narrow dispertion horn that does not have the coverage you need.  Yeah, bug improvement.

[Randyw]

First off, I know what I am doing, and I don't appreciate being called an idiot. The yamaha speakers are the S115IV Club series speakers.  A Total of 4 speakers in the room, now. There was dramatic improvement in sound quality and clarity. I just feel that the horns don't sound natural. Since I can't replace the enclosures due to $$. I was wanting your input on some quality drivers to replace the cheap drivers in the enclosers.  As I was stating before, I was looking at some B&C drivers, including the appropiate horn to match the driver.

[Ira White]

Actually, the Yamaha you mention uses a hefty 2" driver with sonic performance comparable to a store-bought JBL. No, they're not comparable to a high end system like EAW or Meyer, but it is going to be hard to find one off the shelf that is.

If you're looking for better sound reproduction on a budget, I would suggest not spending the church's money on a bandaid and look into the WorxAudio waveguides like the WX15 (worxaudio.com). In my experience, they have the best fidelity and coverage short of high end processed systems, and rival enclosures twice their cost.

If you're concerned about the right sound, make the right investment.

[Michael King]

Since i have been in the same position of working with a church that basically wants the best for next to nothing, I would not suggest switching the drivers. The best would be just to deal with what you have for the time being, and use the money to replace things that might come up like to fix broken Mic's and stuff.
I respect you for taking what the church already had, and fixing it to sound the best that it can. I know from experience sometimes calling what he did a "band-aid" is not necessarily the truth. Because this is obviously not his first choice i would not jump his case. of course it would be a better option to get new equipment but as he stated that is simply not an option.

with that being said, i would just suggest replacing things as you can, as the funds become available, i would not worry about trying to change what you already have

[Tom Young]

Ira-

You need to be very careful about your recommendations for a specific brand and especially when none was solicited. This is not the first time this has happened.

Regardless of your apparent position as a contractor, you are clearly showing an affiliiation with (or preference for) this specific brand and therefore you are beginning to be perceived (by me) as their spokesperson. We have a number of manufacturers' representatives here and none are allowed to pitch their wares. None do.

I also happen to strongly disagree with you about the relative merits of this brand. You and I (plus others here) could get into a real tizzy of a 'discussion' about why this brand is, or is not, all that you think it is. Not only is this not likely to be a constructive thing to have here, but (again) the OP did not request this sort of advice or discussion.

Please consider this in the future.

Thanks.

[Brad Weber]

Randyw wrote on Sun, 12 November 2006 19:28

They have these horrible Yamaha speakers that are full range, flown, two in a center cluster covering a full gym of 400 people. The church doesn't have any extra money for audio things at this point so I've done what I could on a budget.  I've re-flown the speakers, using two per side.  Giving me 180degree coverage, and more control.  I also removed the internal crossover and bi-amped them.  I installed some single 18" JBL subs under the stage 1 per side.  I am powering these with a Crown K1 for High, QSC EX2500  for mids, and two Yamaha CP2000's for Subs running those bridge-mono for each sub.

I have to admit that I am a little confused.  You pulled down a two speaker center cluster and then rehung them with two speakers per side?  Did two additional speakers magically appear during this effort?  Is 180 degree horizontal coverage and/or only 45 degree vertical coverage really desired or approriate for the space and speaker locations?  Did you perform any analysis or prepare any design and plan before making the changes or just "wing it"?

Then you say you removed the internal crossovers, but don't mention anything about addressing the crossover and speaker processing functions.  Can you tell us anything about how you are running the system?  Mono or stereo?  Aux fed subs or not?  What other changes did you make when you modified the system?  What are you using for the crossover and processing?  How did you find and select the crossover settings (and what are they)?

Quote:

My question is I hate the way the horns on the yamaha speaker sound, you start to do some EQ work and pull down a freq, and the most of the horn goes with it.  I know that they are cheap drivers, so I'm thinking of replacing the drivers themselves with something better.

What do you hate about them?  What made you decide that that they are cheap drivers?  I'm personally not as familiar with these speakers as others likely are, but they seem to be well received for what they are and I cannot find or recall seeing any comments that the HF drivers were poor.  Yamaha's frequency response chart for the S115IV shows +/-2dB from around 80-85Hz up to around 15kHz, fairly flat response although it does slope off quickly above 15k.

I'm not sure what you mean by pulling down "a" frequency, 1Hz resolution is an extremely narrow bandwidth, and I have no idea what you are using for EQ or processing (both to apply it and to assess the results), but your comment would typically indicate that you have some processing and/or routing issues.  Maybe it is a very wide filter being pulled down or a high pass filter improperly set somewhere.

[Aaron McQueen]

Quote:

Maybe it is a very wide filter being pulled down or a high pass filter improperly set somewhere.

Or maybe some comb filtering?  I'm not sure how you would effectively array the S115IV. And unless they are the A version (which I don't think they even made a S115IVA), I'm not sure how you would safely fly them, as they are pole mount only.

I happen to like these speakers, the couple of times I have used them.  I think they are a good value, when they are used for what they are intended.  A flyable, array-able speaker they are not.

[Brad Weber]

Great point Aaron!  There apparently was an S115IVA, the following is direct from Yamaha's Owner's Manual:

Fly-Ware
Model S115IVA, S115IVAS, S115IVA-OAK
These speakers are supplied with Fly-Ware rigging hardware
installed. The following notes explain how to prepare
these speakers for suspension.
IMPORTANT! This material does not explain how to
suspend speakers.
To properly suspend any speaker, a knowledge of structural
engineering and structural rigging is REQUIRED.
Suspending loudspeakers requires special tools and techniques.
Do not attempt to suspend any speaker system unless
you have received specific training to do so.
The improper installation of flying speakers can result in
bodily injury or death.
Always consult a licensed engineer to verify the design of
any suspended system. In addition, please follow these
safety steps:
• Use only hardware specifically designed for rigging applications.
• Always use an independent safety suspension system as
a backup.
• Get professional help.

If these speakers aren't "A" versions then it would be interesting to know how they are flown.  Arraying is whole different matter, when will people understand that simply putting two speakers together does not make an "array".  Where arrays are not properly designed, installed and adjusted it's often a case of the whole being less than the sum of the parts.

[ProSoundWeb Community]