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[Alex Courtney]

Hi all,

I've been reading the forum for a few weeks now and have gleaned some wonderful information, so thanks to all who post here freely of their time.

To the question.  Our sound booth is in the balcony.  The balcony is enclosed, however, there is a "window" about 9' wide by 4' high open to the sanctuary.  I, along with various sound volunteers, have trouble hearing when a mic is on the edge of feedback, or the mix is not good, due to the balcony muffling the sound from the sanctuary.  Unless the feedback is howling or if a mic ringing is very loud the soundman cannot hear it in the balcony, but the congregation definitely hears it.  It is also difficult to gauge volume levels from the balcony.  The best solution, move it to the sanctuary floor is not gonna happen, unfortunately.   What are some other suggestions that could be looked into, so that sound operator can hear mix before feedback occurs or excessive ringing starts.  How about a powered monitor in the sound booth?  Bad idea, acceptable, something better?

Extra background info:
See attached sanctuary diagram
Ceiling is peaked.  Peak is about 20' high down to 9'high on sides.
Contemporary worship service style
-Instruments generally in use (piano, organ, drums, bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, saxaphone)

Thanks

[Ralph Cochran]

Hello,

Our church is set up similarly, with the exception of our booth set in the extreme right hand corner of mthe balcony. Needless to say, it DOES make mixing difficult. I have used a couple of things that seem to work for us.Prior to the Sunday Morning service we have a 45 min soundcheck. 1st, I will use headphones to mix the monitor mix from an auxiliary bus so I have complete separation between the stage mix and the house mix. I don't usually energize the fronts until after the stage mix is complete; then I bring the monotor mix as a whole up to a comfortable level for the stage personell. Next, I take off the headphones and have the singers walk around the stage to attempt to ellicit feedback. If none occurs. I LEAVE IT ALONE. The pastor's lapel mike is not energized into the stage mix at all, for this seems to be the worst item for feedback on stage, and is not really necessary in a monitor mix (I refer you to an article in Church Sound magazine regarding this, although I'm not sure which issue) I then adjust the fronts to fill in the entire mix for the house. I go back to the headphones and toggle in both mixes to them so I can "tweak" where the sound needs a little "fill" here and there. It has completely eliminated the feedback issue for us so far. Another thing I do is place a second tech at floor with a two way radio head-set to get an appropriate floor level during the service. If the overall mix is too loud I simply adjust the monitor master and front master mixes to a comfortable level for the congregation. If you are mixing above the congregation, then I would strongly suggest a floor level person to help you set appropriate volume levels. It is very hard to detect feedback levels unless there is someone listening on the ground for you. Another thing you should do is to keep any unused mics off until they are needed. Just pay attention to the stage and you can see when someone grabs a mic. Be ready and you can remain in tune with stage personell. Remember our chosen task is an art like anything else we are called to do in the church and it takes practice.    

[Ivan Beaver]

The basic problem (beside the fact that you are in a different acoustical environmnet) is that the coverage of the main speakers is not getting to you at the same level as the main floor.

A couple of suggestions: You could add either a delay speaker outside the booth or possibly put one inside the booth.  Both of these have advantages and disadvantage-depending on more information than you have provided.

In either case you will need a couple of more "items" to make it work properly.  Obviously a speaker (its pattern needs to be correct for its placement), an amplifier, an EQ, a delay unit AND MOST IMPORTANTLY a person to align this new loudspeaker to the main system.  You will need to have the proper delay-level and eq so that you hear at least a representative signal that is like that of the floor.

You also need to make sure that however you do it, that the new loudspeaker has a minimal effect on both the seating below the loudspeaker AND the Chancel area.  Reflections off of the rear wall may introduce a new set of problems on stage.  This may require resetting the above parameters to a happy medium.

As with all loudspeakers in a room, you need to be concerned not only with their intended coverage area, but the damage the sound coming off of them (rear radition, wall reflections etc) does to the rest of the room-stage and seating areas.

It is for this reason you have to do multiple measurements on a system in its finished alignment-not as you go along and listen intently to the finished product.  I spend a lot of time on stage listening to the "sound" of the room coming back to it.

[Chris Penny]

Pretty much as pointed out, whatever you do you really want someone down on the sanctuary floor, ideally this person being the person at the desk.

Ivan is correct in pointing out what equipment is required in order to adequately set up a monitoring system for your booth. Maybe once you point out how complex/expensive this, and other options are, they may even allow you to relocate downstairs.

Of course there is always the sledgehammer option which pretty much means getting at your "window" and making it as big as possible in order to try better incorporate the balcony area into the sanctuary. Mind you depending on your acoustics this may have negligible effect, but then again sledgehammers are fun.

Ideally you don't want to have to rely on lengthy sound checks too much, as there are times when you may have to do things in a rush/ on the fly and it's those times when you really need to be on the floor so you can hear everything.

[Ivan Beaver]

The problem with just making the opening bigger is that the current mix position is further away from the audience (inverse square law) and in a lower output part of the horn (assuming the current loudseakers are properly positioned for coverage of the main floor), and due to the peaked roof could possibly introduce some more reflections off of the "sides" of the roof, causing a lowering of the intelligibility of the sound arriving at mix.

So the level will still be lower, although you would get more of the "room" sound.

The whole idea is get the same level as the main seating or at least close, with close to the same freq response.

[Justin Rygel]

You could go a completely different direction and replace your mixer with a digital, and use a wireless tablet PC to control it.  This way you can carry your PC out to the main floor and mix from one of the seats.  

This would be VERY dependent on the experience level and ability of your crew as well as willingness to train and be trained, and obviously, would cost some money (starting around $5k for an O1V96 + accessories, depending on your I/O needs), but could give you the best of all worlds if it was done right.

[David Waldo]

We have a similar problem in our smaller worship room, but our booth is not enclosed.

If you can't move the board down to the floor, widening the opening as much as possible would be the next best (and cheapest) option.  As others have said, the audio you hear won't be exactly what the congregation hears, but it'll be a lot better than what you've got.

[Alex Courtney]

Thanks for your input everyone.  Our sound system (excluding mixer which is only 3.5 yrs old) is about 18 years old.  Maybe, I can convince the Board of Trustees that we need to budget for a system "remodel."  

I don't know if a new system would allow us to move the mixing console to the house floor.  However Ivan, as you mentioned, we would most likely need some help setting up any other solution for the balcony anyway, so perhaps it would be just as cost effective to replace the current system than simply using a band-aid approach.  

Incidently, what criteria should we use in evaluating potential audio consultants / contractors.  We are located in a small city (33,000 pop.), 1 hr from Peoria, IL and about 3 1/2 hrs from Chicago.  

Also, what is a reasonable price for an audio consultant's time.  I am a CPA and am no stranger to professionals billing hourly rates.  I presume that audio consultants would use hourly rates as well?

Thanks again

[Ivan Beaver]

I cannot comment directly on consultant charges, but might assume it would have a bit of variance.  Tom Young and others could comment on what they charge.  I would guess in the range of $100-150/hr for small jobs and (again guessing) maybe a lower rate for larger jobs (because there are more hours involved).  I know some consultants charge a certain percentage of the job, regardless of how much time is involved on their part.

We do design/build and charge for the entire job, not an hourly rate.  Our install rates are based on $80/hr/man.  Our rates for me doing alignment are $120/hr.  Other people doing alignments are higher and lower, so it all depends.  It doesn't alway work out that way, but that is the way we figure it.  We don't charge extra for things, like use of the truck or specific tools or equipment, those are included in the hourly rate.  Some companies charge a certain amount for the truck and it's contents, to help cover those costs.  Again everybody figures it differently.

But I am sure you are aware of, the higher rates do not necessarily guarantee a better product in the end.  Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  It just depends.  One of the highest paid persons I know of does a very mediocre job at best, he just thinks he is worth it, because he is "special".  You are supposed to look past the actual performance and "believe" what he believes.  And don't ask, I won't say who it is.

[Brad Weber]

Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 07 November 2006 22:00

One of the highest paid persons I know of does a very mediocre job at best, he just thinks he is worth it, because he is "special".  You are supposed to look past the actual performance and "believe" what he believes.  And don't ask, I won't say who it is.

Awwww, you're no fun, come on and tell us!

Depending on the project and how you would like to work, consultants typically work on either a hourly or lump sum basis.  For any sizable project lump sum, also known as fixed fee, is probably most common.  When there is initially minimal definition of the project scope or budget I often suggest a two step approach with an hourly arrangement until the the project and systems involved can be better defined at which time I can then provide a proposal for a fixed fee for the remainder of the work and can either switch to that from there on out or stay hourly, whichever the client decides.

[Ivan Beaver]

[quote title=Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 08 November 2006 00:12Awwww, you're no fun, come on and tell us!

.[/quote]

You know who he is. A hint.  What is the definition of an expert?  Someone who lives at least 100 miles away.  And if they have to get on a plane to get to the job site, then they are "really" smart.  Or so many people want to believe.

[ProSoundWeb Community]