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Author Topic: Yamaha Mlan "digital snake" Firewire long cable/repeater  (Read 3335 times)

Ivan

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Yamaha Mlan "digital snake" Firewire long cable/repeater
« on: October 16, 2006, 06:44:17 pm »

Hello,

I m running a Yamaha system in my FOH church for PA aplication. I m using one mixer Yamaha DM1000.

I have two cards installed, one MY16AT for ADAT preamps to expand the mixer to 32 channels and one MY16-mLAN for recording situation. We use a computer in the FOH to record.

We have no problens running the Mlan network, except for some clicks and missing sinals when we playback the DAW. But it occurred only a few times

We are planning a new upgrade in our system to improve the recording capacity and the live internet and radio broadcast. Currently we mix it with a old analog mixer using the stereo master from the DM1000 and adding some ambient mics connected directly to the analog mixer.

But the problem in this situation is that the recording/broadcast operator cant mix the channels independently from the PA mixer.

My idea is to buy another yamaha digital mixer (i m plannig one 01v96), one MY16-mLAN and connect with the DM1000 in the FOH over the Mlan network. We can send 16 channels (direct-out, aux or bus) to the 01v96 to mix the channels for recording situation. So, with this setup we will have 16 chanells from the FOH mixer and 12 preamps for others ambient mics.

Problem: We are building a new control room for the recording and broadcast application. It is about 25 meters from the FOH mixer. So, we need to use some long firewire cable and a couple of firewire repeaters.

I found the Unibrain cables and repeaters in the internet.
To cover the distance, i think i will use tree 10 meters cables and two repeaters.

Have anyone tried this cables and repeaters?

What about long firewire cables? Have anyone tried it with success?

And what about this setup using the Mlan network? Can it work?

What about the latency using firewire repeaters?

Have another suggestion?

Is it better to stay in the analog with a analog snake (using the Behringer ADA8000 outputs) or use the MY16AT ADAT ports to connect the mixers?

The distance is 25 meters and we need a minimum of 16 channels from the DM1000 to the new mixer.



Thanks,

Ivan Klavin

OBS: Sorry for my english. My church is The First Baptist Church in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
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Cliff45

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Re: Yamaha Mlan "digital snake" Firewire long cable/repeater
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2006, 12:37:20 am »

Hello Ivan-

Glad to hear your ministry is expanding, that's always a great thing to me!! Very Happy

ADAT feeds may be the easy way to go for you, but the distance over standard plastic ADAT fiber is 10 meters MAX, and usually poor quality at that distance (digital "jitter" noise). You'll need a converter box to drive Plastic Clad Silica Fiber (also known as just Glass Fiber) like high speed computer networking uses to get a good signal this distance.  This setup can easily go up to 1000 meters on good fiber. There is a box made by Merging Technologies (Onouris) for this use.

Perhaps a cheaper way is using a converter like the Hear Technologies "Extreme Extender" box, it converts ADAT optical to run on standard Category 5e network cable wiring up to 500 feet. You need a pair, one "IN" box and one "OUT" box for this. Make no mistake though, this is for "point-to-point" between these two units, NEVER PLUG THEM INTO A ETHERNET COMPUTER NETWORK!!  I have never done it, but I'm sure a bad thing would happen if this was done!! Shocked

Have you considered the Yamaha Y1 Aviom digital card? It offers 16 channels on CAT-5e cable up to 150 meters using a special "A-Net" standard. I have Aviom cards in my digital mixer here (not a Yamaha, it's DiGiCo D1) and they are very trouble free! We use them for monitor feeds on stage to the musicians. It's solid technology, and very affordable compared to many others. The small Yamaha digital mixers support it well, I am told.

Kind Regards,

Cliff



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Cliff Rosenberg
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Tom Young

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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2006, 06:40:39 am »

Please edit your profile and use your real name when posting. This is one of the rules here.

Thanks.
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
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Tom Young

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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2006, 06:42:12 am »

Please edit your profile and use your real name when posting. This is one of the rules here.

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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
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Ivan

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Re: Yamaha Mlan "digital snake" Firewire long cable/repeater
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2006, 12:25:37 pm »

Hello Cliff,

I forgot to tell you that our budget is very limited and here in Brazil is very difficult and expensive to buy high-end equipments.

I think that the optical Glass Fiber converter is "too much" for only 25 meters, and the converter is only one ADAT signal converter. I think that the entire system with 4 converters (16 channels) and 2 25 meters optical Glass Fiber is very expensive. I cant imagine how much it will cost to import to Brazil.

The Aviom solution i think is expensive too. And we need to buy 2 aviom card, one for DM1000 and another to the new mixer.

I liked the Hear Technologies "Extreme Extender" solution. Good value, U$ 140 for the pair, and great range using CAT5e cables.
For 16 channels we will need 2 pairs, U$ 280.

The problem is: The computer will move from the FOH to the control room for the recording. We dont use any audio interface in the computer, the interface is the Mlan card in the DM1000 connect to the computer firewire port.
The DM1000 has two expasion slots. We are using both, one with the MLan and the other with the 16 channels ADAT I/O card.
If i choose the 01v96 mixer and the ADAT extender CAT solution, the 01v96 has only 1 onboard ADAT I/O. To use 16 channels we need to buy another ADAT expansion card. But the 01v96 has only 1 slot. So, we cant use the Mlan interface to the computer in this case. We will need to buy a ADAT interface to the computer to use the ADAT outs from the 01v96. And in this case, the actual Mlan card is unuseful.

All this solutions, is "one way link". Another advanced to the Mlan solution is that the link is bidirectional. 16 channels from DM1000 to 01v96 and 16 channels from 01v96 to DM1000.

I think that one pair of Hear ADAT extender is a great solution for a backup/expand 8 channels link. Using one port of DM1000 ADAT Out, connected to the 01v96 onboard ADAT In.


Have anyone here experience working with long Firewire cables using repeaters?


Thanks Cliff....

Ivan Klavin - First Baptist Church in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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Ira White

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Re: Yamaha Mlan "digital snake" Firewire long cable/repeater
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2006, 12:18:08 am »

If you have two aux sends available on the DM1000, did you know you can remotely control them via MIDI control change connections between the DM1000 and an 01V96 through a single mic cable? (It just takes making a couple of simple XLR to MIDI adaptors for interconnect through a standard XLR line, even in a snake.)

I've done this with a second Yamaha digital in a production booth controlling the FOH digital out in the balcony for both video and CDR recording feeds. You can pair two DM1000 auxes and configure the control change settings so the channel faders of the 01V96 remotely control the appropriate channel aux levels of the DM1000. Then just feed you stereo (aux) signal back to your production room for feeds to video/broadcast and monitoring. No need to run multichannel feeds to get individual mix capability. You can also set the MIDI for some crucial aux master EQ control as well, but you're limited to a little over 100 or so parameters you can assign via MIDI.

You can also assign these so the 01V second layer (17-32) is handling the remote channel control, so you'll still have the first layer (1-16) for direct plug-in and mixing of your ambient mics. Oh, and you won't be tying up any card slots.
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Ira White
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Rob Warren

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Re: Yamaha Mlan "digital snake" Firewire long cable/repeater
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2006, 02:35:51 pm »

Quote:

Is it better to stay in the analog with a analog snake (using the Behringer ADA8000 outputs)


I think there are some very good advantages by doing this.
Even if you get an O1V mixer you still may want to hook the snake up to it analog.  If you are getting a split feed off of the mic pre's then you have a lot more control over the signal.

Either way you do it you will not have control over the gain of the mic pre.  However, it would be good to have independent gain on the recording console for just your line input.  You would not have that going through the DM-1000. Plus the biggest thing I can see is totally independent EQ and any FX needed per channel.  (these 2 things both will vary greatly mixed in a control room vs. in the live room)

Not to mention a 16 channel snake is a whole lot cheaper than extra cards and running digital cable long lengths.
Also, wouldn't it be nice to have that spare card slot in your DM-1000 for future needs.  What if down the road you wanted to use an AVIOM for your musicians monitors?  This slot would allow for that expansion.

something to really consider
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Rob

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Yamaha Mlan "digital snake" Firewire long cable/repeater
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2006, 02:35:51 pm »


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