Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mike Yates]

I am new to projection but have researched it heavily for the last few months...I think I've finally put together what were looking for.  I am posting to see if anyone has any suggestions or comments on this system before I bite the bullet and have it installed.

My original intent was to go 16:9 folks said material for 16:9 was not as plentiful as the 4:3 material...so I kinda got stuck on the 4:3 while researching and put out for bids.  But the more research I did it became apparent that there was enough material out there and 16:9 was the way to go.  I couldn't find any suitable projectors until the EIKI LC-4W was recommended by a consultant.  The projector will mount from the ceiling about 23' from the 16' screen (can't long throw).  Here's the system:

COST: $23,000 (installed)

EQUIPMENT:

EIKI LC-4W 4,700lum Projector http://www.projectorcentral.com/EIKI-LC-W4.htm
EIKI AH-32501 Short Throw Lens Power Zoom & Focus 1.42" ~ 1.97"
Kramer VP-724xl Switcher/ Scaler
Extron DVI Extender
Da-Lite 106" x 188" Cosmo Electrol Screen w/RF remote

COMPUTER:

(computer is about $2,800 of the system cost w/the monitors)
Power Supply: Thermaltake 550W
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz (1066MHz Front Side Bus) (4MB Cache) (Conroe)
Motherboard: Asus P5B (Chipset: Intel P965)
Memory: 2GB DDR2 Super Talent at 1066MHz (Dual Chan.) (Extreme-Performance)
Hard Drive 1: Western Digital 320GB (16MB Cache) (7200 RPM) (SATA II)
Hard Drive 2: Western Digital 320GB (16MB Cache) (7200 RPM) (SATA II)
Raid Option: Setup my two hard drives in a Raid 0 Stripe
Optical Drive 1: Lite-On CD-R/RW/DVD-ROM (CD Writer 52x / DVD Reader 16x Combo) (Includes Nero)
Network Card: High Speed Network Port (Supports High-Speed Cable / DSL / Network Connections)
Video Card: nVidia GeForce 7900GT 256MB (By: Asus) (PCI-Express)
Sound Card: Motherboard Multi-Channel High Definition Audio (7.1 Channel)
Cooling: Air Cooling (Blizzard Extreme Heat-sink and Fan (Stage 2 Cooling)
Windows OS: Microsoft Windows XP Media Center 2005
2-ViewSonic VX2235wm 22-inch LCD Monitors    http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=SEARCH& amp; amp; amp;    amp;Ntt=VX2235&N=0&Dx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&D=    VX2235&Ntk=All&product_code=341696&Pn=VX2235wm_2 2_inch_LCD_Multimedia_Monitor

Here's a picture of our Sanctuary approximating a 16' 16:9 screen from farthest seat (90'):

Here are some pictures of our sanctuary:     http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tootallll/slideshow2?.dir=/51f 9&.src=ph&.beg=0&.spd=2

All comments appreciated!

Thanks!
TT

[Brad Weber]

16:9 video is still not that common unless you are showing movies or HD programming, but it probably will become more common as DTV and HDTV become more prevalent.  15:9 or 16:9 computer graphics are also becoming much more common, especially WXGA laptops.

I do not want to be double guessing what you've done, but have some comments to consider.  None of these are hard and fast rules, just some commonly overlooked issues to consider.

The "furthest viewer" is usually from one back corner to the furthest point on the screen, not from the center back of the room to the center of the screen.  If it is 90' from the screen to someone seated in the middle of the back pew then it may be over 100' for the furthest viewer (far edge of screen to opposite rear corner of congregation).

At 90', rule of thumb would suggest a 15' high image (180"x320") with a 135"x240" as a sort of a lower limit, thus  106"x188" seems a little small based on "standard" criteria.  You can overcome this by using large text, etc., but it may make using canned material more difficult.  Going to a 180"x320" screen and around a 15,000 lumen projector it likely would require will certainly significantly increase the costs, so I can see why that might not be practical!

FWIW, projector manufacturers often OEM models from one another and you might want to look at the Sanyo PLV-WF10 as that appears to be what the Eiki really is (exact same LCD panels, contrast, size, weight, power, heat, etc.).  Also be aware that based on Sanyo's specs and some comments from Eiki regarding light output with short throw lenses, in your application this is more like a 4000 lumen projector than 4700 lumens.  So for the 106"x188" image you identified (and based on a screen surface as discussed below) the projector output appears borderline, I would normally look at about a 5000 lumen projector as a minimum.  The Eiki you have noted is close and in many applications might be just fine, but it looks as though where your screen might be located combined with the screen size and the room lighting might make it hard to keep ambient light off the screen.  Unless you can dramatically dim or turn off the center lights during any projection you may want to consider a brighter projector in order to minimize having a washed out image.  I often look at the Panasonic PT-DW7000U/U-K for this size screen, but there are others.

On a related note, you did not identify the screen surface.  This is a major consideration.  Your sanctuary appears to not be overly wide so a wide angle viewing surface is probably not required.  While a high gain screen might increase image brightness, it will also increase the effect of any ambient light on the screen.  Unless you can control the ambient and room lighting on the projection screen, you might want to consider at a high contrast screen surface.

Look carefully at any short throw lenses.  They often limit the image shift and other optical deviations allowed as well as sometimes slightly reducing light output compared to the standard lens used for the projector rating.  Not necessarily a problem, just something to be aware of.

Think carefully about how you are going to hang the projector and screen, it looks like working around the light fixtures and attaching to solid structure may be a bit of a challenge.  Also keep in mind that with both hung so far down any vibration in the structure or air movement hitting the screen will likely result in a much amplified movement in the image.  And start thinking about how you get power to both the screen and projector and cabling to the projector.

Finally, is the DVI extender because the computer is away from where the Kramer scaler/switcher will be?  I'm not quite sure how you envisioned running two monitors and a feed to the switcher/scaler off one video card if that is what you plan, but given that you are going to be scaling the image and running RGBHV from the switcher/scaler to the projector anyways, you may want to consider using a VGA output of the computer to the Kramer and the DVI output for a local monitor.  

That should be enough to consider for now!

[Mike Yates]

Thanks Brad!

Great comments...I am going 16:9 because it appears there is enough technology and images available to make it viable in our application.  We are a small church and although $20k is probably not a huge sum to most larger organizations it is huge for us.  I would like to not have to think about dropping another $20k in five years to go 16:9 because the material put out at that time is 16:9.  I'm trying to be a good steward of what resources God has blessed us with and it seems difficult because of ever changing technology.  I've gone back and forth in considering 4:3 and 16:9 and my head is spinning.  So, I finally decided not to worry about the availability of 16:9 material right now, and any 4:3 material we use I guess can be configured to use on the 16:9 projector.

After I posted several others have mentioned a larger screen would be more appropriate...just not sure if I can put together a screen/projector combination that will provide the needed screen size increase and still remain within our budget.  Several others also suggested as you that the sanyo manufactures the Eiki model I was looking at in the WF10 and could be $1k cheaper.

As far as the extender...it was recomended to run the VGA from the projector into the extender, and cat5 from extender to switcher (about 175').  The computer and Switcher will be located next to each other.

I'm a sound dude who's getting into projection so connection of video equipment is beyond my scope of abilities and was hoping to receive advice such as yours.  I have read of VGA port splitters...could one of those be utilized by splitting the projector monitor and the projector out of one VGA port?  I could add a second nVidia 7900gt with two more outs if needed but if a splitter would work at a lower cost then I will probably do that.  

Depending on the cost of final equipment we might be installing our new projection equipment.  I am somewhat confused on how to hook up all the components. Does anyone know of a link to a thorough exlanation on how to connect/set-up/calibrate projection system components, i.e., projector/computer/scaler/audio mixing console?

Thanks for the input!

Blessings!
TT

[Mike Yates]

Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 27 September 2006 22:16

Look carefully at any short throw lenses.  They often limit the image shift and other optical deviations allowed as well as sometimes slightly reducing light output compared to the standard lens used for the projector rating.  Not necessarily a problem, just something to be aware of.

...is the same true for long throw lenses?

[Brad Weber]

Mike Yates wrote on Mon, 02 October 2006 13:01

...is the same true for long throw lenses?

In some cases, it does vary from lens to lens.  Typically the medium throw lenses offer the most flexibility and light output, this is why they are what the projectors are tested and rated with, while the very short throw lenses (<1.0:1) intended for rear projection often have to be on the centerline at a fixed location for the image size.

Look at sites like Extron for lots of general information on using DAs, scaler/switchers, etc.  There are numerous educational and application oriented documents and many of the product manuals have  graphic hookup diagrams, even if what you have differs in the details the general concepts will be the same.  Keep in mind that as far as AV presentation most churches are much like an auditorium or large classroom, often applications documents related to those will also apply to churches.

Calibrating is a whole different issue, to do it right takes having the proper equipment although many of the adjustments can be ballparked by eye with some readily available test DVDs.  Check out the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) for info, they are sort of the reference for projection calibration.

Extron and others have some relatively inexpensive 1x2 VGA DAs made to provide a local monitor feed and a second signal feed such as for going to your switcher/scaler, Extron's model is the P/2 DA2 (there are several versions).

[Brian Kent Tennyson]

Brad, I'm going to disagree with you on the screen height for the sanctuary. The 1/6th rule applies well to business setting where 12pt text is common, but in a church setting you are typically viewing video or 40pt text on a presentation software.

I would say if you have good eye site, put up some text on a 20" monitor and stand 6' then 10' away and see how readable your presentation text is. These distance from your monitor will be fairly good approximations of 1/6th vs. 1/10 height to distance ratios.

Personally I would go with a 9' x 16' screen. High contrast surface for good light rejection, plus you have a narrow enough room.

Your foot candles per sq. ft. of screen need to be figure by the amount of foot candles you will have hitting the vertical surface of the screens. From your pics I'm going to say you have a lot, like 25 to 35, so lets say 30. Your projector for Power Point should produce a contrast  ratio of 10:1.  At 30fc of ambient that would mean you would need around 300fc per sf. So you need a 43,200 ANSI Lumen PROJECTOR !!!!!! So get the light down  3 to 4 fc if your going to use a 5000 ANSI lumen projector.

Remember that DLPs cost more but they have higher contrast, so you are getting higher perceived brightness. Look at Christe, Digital Projection and Barco for DLP, avoid Eiki. For LCD I would look at Panasonic for wide format, or Mitsubishi.

Good luck,

PS your contarst ratio for video should be 2.5:1 so you may want to turn the lights out for video.

[Brad Weber]

I don't at all take that as "disagreeing", rather it just highlights the point that one of the major factors in determining the appropriate screen size is what is being displayed.

The 1/6 the distance to the furthest viewer is indeed the "rule of thumb" for standard computer presentation, 1/8 for video, etc.  I agree that if it is only large point text presentations then the screen can be much smaller.  However ,I find many churches using their presentation systems for things other than normal services.  If you might find yourself having special presentations or presentations with subtitles or anything like that then you might want to consider a larger screen.  If not and you'll be able to control the text size and fonts used, then a smaller screen is defintiely feasible.

I also agree that the effect of ambient light is often overlooked, especially when adding screens to an existing space.  The SMPTE standards for light levels off the screen are for cinemas where the rooms are dark and there is a high level of light control, but that's not a typical environment for most facilities so you have to account for the difference, which can indeed require a much brighter projector.

[Tim Urner]

I think your screen size is a little on the big side. I would back off to at least a 14 if not a 12. People will be able to see a 12 or 14 fine. (put away the slide rules, real world here)

Reason being I would say the screen size/projector brightness is a little off. You either need a higher output projector or a smaller screen. I would suggest bumping up to a 5000 or 6000 Lumen if you stay that large. With ambient light I don't think the 4700 will cut it.

Someone mentioned Digital Proj, Barco and Christie. They make great products, but hold onto your pocket books for a 16:9. Only your budget can make that determination.

I think the price quoted is reasonable, if that link was to an accurate Eiki Price. I would look to bump up the proj or down the screen a notch or 2.

16:9 big projectors are not the main stream yet and you are going to pay for it. For example a Mitsu. XL5980 5500 lumen is around 8K and the Eiki specd is 13K without the lens

[Brian Kent Tennyson]

Tim Urner wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 23:44

(put away the slide rules, real world here)

Yeah, your right. Just guess, that always works well.

(Yes, that was sarcasm.)

There is NO substitute for carefully planning and time tested formulas.

[Brad Weber]

Aren't these pretty much the very same points that had already been noted in the previous posts 9 months earlier?

[ProSoundWeb Community]