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Author Topic: AT892C vs. E6  (Read 4163 times)

Lee Buckalew

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Re: AT892C vs. E6
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2006, 08:15:59 pm »

Ira,
I am refering to the Omni E6 vs. the Omni AT vs. the Omni DPA.  With all being omni's and positioning the mic elements as close as possible to the same position on the presenter the DPA usually has the highest gain before feedback followed by the Countryman and then the AT.  You do have to make fair comparisons.  Don't use the flat capsule cover on the DPA and the highest peaking response cover on the AT or the Countryman and call it fair.  Compare flat vs. flat, peaked vs. peaked, etc.  The Countryman offers three different capsule covers for Flat, slight high rise, large high rise so sometimes it can be tuned better before EQ is applied than even the DPA can.  
The better gain before feedback comment goes for both before and after EQ is applied.  The amount of EQ necessary varies tremendously based on both the speaker system and the mic used but, given the same speaker system with each mic being tested the DPA typically (given decent speakers and room set up) needs the least EQ while the Countryman falls in the middle and the AT needs a bit more.  The Countryman and AT are similar in most respects with an edge going to the Countryman.  Typically the reason clients pick one over the other (Countryman vs. AT) is comfort followed by sound quality followed by price.

Now for Omni vs. Cardioid or Supercardioid.  An omni is always my first choice as they have the most natural sound.  No proximity effect to deal with, etc.  Coming from the theatre world I would almost never use directional headworn mics in a stage show as the proximity effect creates large problems.
It is very rare to have an omni have feedback problems as a headset mic until SPL at the mic element is well over 95 dB/spl or higher.  I have many Countryman E6 and DPA omni's in use by worship leaders and worship teams doing contemporary services with no feedback problems.  Monitors range from Mackie SRM350's to Martin LE12JB.  I can get a lot more gain before feedback with the Martin LE12JB's than the Mackie's just because of the better design of the speaker but neither system lacks for gain before feedback in the monitors.
It really boils down to physics.  If the mic capsule on a headworn mic can be kept within 1" of the presenter or performers mouth (and it does not vary with head or arm movements) vs. perhaps 9" plus or minus and varying with a lavelier vs. 12"-18" or more for most lecturn mics or at least (in the church) a few inch's or more for a hand held whether on a stand or held you can get much better gain from the headworn.  Apply the Inverse square law for sound pressure changes in the free field (inverse square law that is closest to being directly applicable hear) and the differences are quite large with all but a hand held mic that is being "eaten".

edited for clarity

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Lee Buckalew
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Ira White

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Re: AT892C vs. E6
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2006, 09:52:01 am »

I'm of the same mindset on omni and uni when it comes to speaking mics. Most people make the same mistake of getting a uni lav instead of an omni, and I'm surprised how long it has taken manufacturers to realize we needed more omni earworns/headworns. I made my first from an old gooseneck headset (shortened to set at the side of the cheek) and a mini omni lav element about 8 years ago for $100, painted it flesh color, and it sounded comparable to $400 units today.

My point was as you have confirmed, that you were indicating response and not feedback rejection. I wanted people to be clear on that. Also, feedback based on response is going to be totally dependent on the system EQ. If a system is tuned slightly differently, then one of the others may perform better in that regard.

I use E6, Microset, and Audix HT5 in my ministry, and they all work equally well with my system tuning. I also use them for choir supplement, placing them on eight key vocalists for solos and to bring the choir out over full band and orchestra. It works great, and I can even feed them through monitors to a sufficient degree so others can cue off the solos.

Of course, these are meant to have a more natural ambient quality to blend with choir rather than the "in your face" sound of a unidirectional, headworn or handheld.  
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Ira White
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: AT892C vs. E6
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2006, 10:57:58 am »

Ira,
I am talking about feedback rejection.  Gain before feedback is better with most of the good headworn mics than anything other than a directional handheld being "eaten".

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Ira White

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Re: AT892C vs. E6
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2006, 01:36:11 pm »

Lee,

I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're suggesting. Gain before feedback doesn't necessarily imply feedback rejection.  Omnidirectionals offer no "feedback rejection" since they pick up from all directions, rejecting nothing. Unidirectionals reject feedback with directional pickup patterns. But any mic may have frequency peaks in its response that are more prone to feedback, therefore having less "gain before feedback".

Consequently, I'm not sure why you are suggesting that omnis offer rejection, and I believe that would be confusing for readers. I would assume what you're trying to say is that they simply have better pickup in certain applications that translates to better gain before feedback.  
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Ira White
Sanctuary Sound, Inc.

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I always wanted to be somebody, but I see now I should have been more specific.

Lee Buckalew

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Re: AT892C vs. E6
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2006, 03:18:19 pm »

Ira,
The terminology that you are using is confusing to me.

Gain before feedback has nothing to do with polar pattern per se.  It is merely a measure of the level at which feedback occurs compared to the gain that you can get from the mic before feedback occurs.  

Rejection of sound off axis of the mic is what you are referring to as feedback rejection.  It is not actually feedback rejection but is rejection of off axis sound.  This is directly affected by polar pattern as you suggest although not all cardioids are equally cardioid, etc.  
Using a mic with a pattern that rejects sound from certain angles of incidence can help avoid feedback and can lead to better gain before feedback but they are not necessarily linked.  Distance from the sound source to the mic capsule is also a significant factor in gain before feedback as is the number of open microphones.

No mic inherently offers "feedback rejection" (with the possible exception of the differoid) but rather some mics offer rejection to sound arriving from certain directions.  The issue of feedback is a direct result of the already amplified signal being reamplified.

I think that feedback rejection is a misleading phrase.

I am certainly not trying to start an argument just being sure that people are clear on terms.  Mics don't reject feedback, they reject sound pick up from certain directions if they are directional.  

Let's have some others who are more eloquent than am I chime in here and give a good definition.
Tom, Greg, Ivan?

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Lee Buckalew
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Ira White

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Re: AT892C vs. E6
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2006, 08:35:14 am »

I guess "feedback potential" would be a better term.
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Ira White
Sanctuary Sound, Inc.

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Re: AT892C vs. E6
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2006, 08:35:14 am »


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