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[Brandon B.]

Hi Steve!

Thanks for the advice.  That's what I'm hoping to do.  Unfortunately, though, I am 225 miles away (this is a former church that I'm still involved with from time to time), but some of my best friends still go there (including the one who was unofficially put in charge of this and has asked me to help).  I'm also about to get married, so that takes away from my free time as well, needless to say... hehe.

I am seriously considering system install as a career.  Any advice from you guys on how I could possibly pursue that?

I am currently working on (and should finish next year... I'm now officially a senior ) my Recording Industry degree at Middle Tennessee State University.  I'm also doing backline for a major Christian band out of Nashville when the need arises and they have room on the bus for me.    This has allowed me to network a bit and also pick their FOH guy's brain and also has exposed me slightly to some higher end gear (Midas Heritage, Sienna, Yamaha DM2000's, JBL Vertec's, d&b Q-series, etc., etc.).  I am also minoring in electronics and I'm considering getting my EE from a local technical school after I finish my bachelors.

What specifically should I do?  Pursue a part-time job helping someone install and learn my way from there?  

Again, advice is greatly appreciated.  

Brandon

[Tom Young]

In some ways you are not the best person for this church to have as their sound consultant. Yes, you are an ex-parishioner and a friend. But you are way too eager to do whatever it takes to spend the $20k if/when they choose to ignore our advice. Why are you not concerned that it will not turn out well ? Why are you not concerned that when it does not turn out well you may be held accountable ?

An alternative to going along with their plan when they ignore our advice is to say "sorry, this is simply wrong. I won't be involved in wasting church money and ending up with severely compromised sound (and video)"  

That is what most professionals with ethics do when faced with such unreal expectations.

No one here would recommend a D&B system. It is simply not justified. But there are a good number of loudspeakers well below what D&B costs that would work very well here. Including JBL.

I obviously do not know what the overall construction budget is. But it is a safe bet that this project can easily absorb as much money as it would take for the proper design and installation of acoustics and an appropriate (in function and cost) sound system. But the owners need to be convinced.

I don't see you doing that.

And please do not criticize me if this seems harsh. We have provided you with good, honest advice.

That's what you asked for (when you said, "I really want to do this right, whether doing it myself or not") and that's what we try to provide here.

[Guest]

It is one thing when someone asks "what system can we design for our present facility?" it is a completely different animal when you are considering a whole new building. Long before any sound equipment is even on the radar would be the accoustic disign of the buiding.

I just got to see another unfortunate result.  A local church put up a nice new building. It is a meatal building, and I am sure that the buiding manufacturer did the design.  Not only is it an asthetic and accoustic letdown, there are examples everywhere where a competent dsesigner could have taken just OK to fantastic.

Al of the equipment is 'top notch' but the sound is poor at best. There was WAY too much spent to get such lackluster results. And it is very likely that there would not have been a significant amount more to have gotten things done right.

[Clayton Luckie]

This article seems to have a good deal of wisdom.  Spending more money now can save you a lot more money in the future.  

www.audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

cl

[Clayton Luckie]

Ivan Beaver wrote on Wed, 17 May 2006 21:18

There was a local church here that a couple of years ago had a meeting and was going to expand their sanc. so they voted a budgetary amount.  $100.  Yes, 100 NOT 100K.  They thought that that was a lot of money.  They did not have any idea of what it would take to do anything.

Why does that sound all too familiar?  The western church is in an interesting spot, where it takes professional grade equipment to do what they need.  Hopefully as the generations come and go, this kind of thing will become more rare.  ...maybe

cl

[Handy Brent]

I am getting in late on this.  Here are my 2 cents, seeing how I grew up in a church where $20k for sound would have been a huge unbiblical waste of money (so they thought).  It is common and traditional for these small churches to not think.  That is not a slam, but the truth.  I don't know what happens.  But the minute that builders, electricians, and wannabe's that go to church think that they can all of a sudden forget about laws, codes, and physics when it comes to building a church.

I once did a retrofit for a church in Louisiananana.  They built this 1,000 seater with no permit, on an easement, and it was condemned eventually.  The speakers were JBL M series, not MRs.  The "cluster" was suspended by a drop tile grid.  Their projector screens were anchored with crapp hardware through the firewall.  The lazer level revealed +/-24" of wave in the drop tile ceiling.  Complete crap.

All that to say that people don't WANT to think in churches, because that costs them money that they think that they do not have.  Personally, I think that if your church does not have the cash to do things legally, properly, safely, then you shouldn't be operating and that God will not honor poor stewardship and testitmony.

Picking out gear before even knowing what the room is going to be is insane.  Using JBL MRs is insane.  those are ok for music playback.  But they really aren't voiced for church, spoken word, etc.  Those are hiss and mud boxes IMNSHO.  This church should hire somebody that they can hold liable legally, can service the gear and the people.  In that price range they will not pay for a designer.  And really they might be able to get by with a one stop shop like All Pro, etc that does inhouse design for no charge.

[Brandon B.]

Hey guys... thanks again for the replies.

Tom, in a lot of ways I'm not the best person for this church as a sound consultant.    I had considered that it wouldn't turn out the best, but I will not turn my back just because they won't do the best thing and since I'm not professional and don't have a company to protect, that is something I'm willing to live with, IF I have to.  I am honestly wanting the best in this and I'm considering doing a presentation to them on why it is necessary to hire a designer.

I do agree with you, and I hope so desperately that they get a designer (and I WILL do my best to convince them of that, despite what I may have portrayed up to this point ).  The D&B system I just mentioned because it is a very nice sounding system (we've used them in the band I do backline for and are using them on a 60 date fall tour).

I've kind of gone out on a limb here, and I'm glad I did.  My ignorance has shone more than brightly... lol... but I am learning quite a bit from this little thread.  I know to some of you guys I am probably a young punk looking to spend the church's money in the way I see fit.

Thanks for the link, Clayton.  I may just use that in my presentation, should there be one.  

Brandon

[Ivan Beaver]

Last week we did a job in a small/medium church east of Knoxville.  They spent what was considered quite a bit for the system (for the area).

The response from them upon hearing it was "WOW, I had no idea how much of a difference a new sound system could make".  I told them that it was not because of a "new" system, but the "right" system for the room.  This particular job involved the use of 3 different loudspeaker manufacturers products, because no 1 manufacturer made what was right for the different needs at a price point that we were shooting for.

They are looking at us to redo their youth/gym system in the very near future.  While not cheap, it will be a great system.

[Brandon B.]

That's good to know, Ivan.

They're about 30 miles east of Knoxville.  Would you mind telling me which church it was?  It may help to have an example they can hear locally.  

Thanks!

Brandon

[Ivan Beaver]

The church is Maryville FUMC.  We did the Sanc. week before last and hopefully will be doing the gym soon.

The Sanc has double stacked TOA line sources per side with a Danley TH28 sub flown at the peak.

A Danley SH100 was used for the balcony fill.  Atlas was used in the foyer.

An 01v96 performs FOH duty. Yamaha P series amps and Biamp Nexia processing.

This room is a VERY traditional type service.

Their gym is the youth room.  They currently have powered Mackies with a Pheonix? 24 or 32 channel mixer.  They are looking at putting Danley SH50's mains and SH100's fills and TH115 subs in there.  I think the FOH will be either 2 01V96's or a single one with mic pres for 32 channels.  Then they can really rock.

[ProSoundWeb Community]